Originally Posted by Hemmers

Originally Posted by EX_STAB

I don't have a great deal of time for the National Bodies but they will help you with this.

Yes, opinions of NGBs is irrelevant in this case as they now certify civvie ranges and issue RSCs since the MoD decided they didn't have time to do it for civvies.
You will have to deal with them whether you like it or not. And as inept as they may be at PR and politics, that's because they really know what they're doing with the actual sports side of it.
There is a joint NRA/NSRA range design booklet which is quite a lot of cut and paste from the MoD range design manual (don't fix it if it ain't broke!).<snip>

The NGB's do issue safety certificates. They have no standing in law and there is no requirement to have one though much as they might like that to be the case. You DO NOT need an NRA/NSRA Safety certificate to operate your range.
Anybody can write a range safety certificate, it's meaningless as there is no legislation or British Standard that it relates to. I can write you a certificate that says "I certify that this range is safe." You can write your own. No such requirement in law.

The NRA plagiarisation of JSP403 is practically useless. That is one very broken document if ever I saw one. It is inconsistent, arbitrary, unscientific and less than helpful.

As to whether the NGBs "really do know what they are doing" I would venture that if they did , shooting in Britain wouldn't be in the parlous state it is. They are totally useless.

Remind me where the 2012 shooting events are being held?

Thanks to everyone who has replied, the range will fit into the area that I have been given, although first thing this morning the spec has been changed by 90 degrees to allow car parking.
Does anyone know of any companies that specialise in building ranges?

Originally Posted by Spacehopper383

Thanks to everyone who has replied, the range will fit into the area that I have been given, although first thing this morning the spec has been changed by 90 degrees to allow car parking.
Does anyone know of any companies that specialise in building ranges?

I have already offered.

Most of it is just standard building techniques. You may need some engineering input for your backstop depending on the design. It's the design that you need to get squared away then employ a suitable architect and builder.

If you're interested then PM me.

Cheers Ex-Stab, keep an eye out for a PM in the next week or so.
At the moment we are just working on fitting a range, an indoor bowling green, clubhouse/bar as well as a doctors surgury and some flats into the plot of land approx 6,200m². We also have to contend with a large dia sewer running through the site with a 5m exclusion zone each side of it. My idea was that the shooting range was located below ground with the indoor bowling green on top.

If you can fit in a 100m range and make it fit for centrefire rifle you will be everyone's friend!

I'll keep an eye out for your pm.

All I know is that the indoor mortar range is meant to be fecking huge. I never got to see it though because I walked round & round camp trying to find the Q with the keys but no one ever had them.

Originally Posted by EX_STAB

Originally Posted by Hemmers

Originally Posted by EX_STAB

I don't have a great deal of time for the National Bodies but they will help you with this.

Yes, opinions of NGBs is irrelevant in this case as they now certify civvie ranges and issue RSCs since the MoD decided they didn't have time to do it for civvies.
You will have to deal with them whether you like it or not. And as inept as they may be at PR and politics, that's because they really know what they're doing with the actual sports side of it.
There is a joint NRA/NSRA range design booklet which is quite a lot of cut and paste from the MoD range design manual (don't fix it if it ain't broke!).<snip>

The NGB's do issue safety certificates. They have no standing in law and there is no requirement to have one though much as they might like that to be the case. You DO NOT need an NRA/NSRA Safety certificate to operate your range.
Anybody can write a range safety certificate, it's meaningless as there is no legislation or British Standard that it relates to. I can write you a certificate that says "I certify that this range is safe." You can write your own. No such requirement in law.

Every FAC held for target shooting has a condition which states you may only shoot on ranges with a Range Safety Certificate. It used to say MoD RSC, but new grants/renewals ones are now being modified to open them up to new ranges not certified by the MoD.
Although not de jure, it is generally accepted as de facto that this means an RSC from a body who actually know what they're doing, as opposed to some Joe-Public individual glancing at the range and making a shiny certificate on MS Publisher.
What it comes down to is that if there is an accident, you need the full risk assessment and design process, etc, etc to demonstrate that the club is not at fault and has followed the advice and bets practice as laid down by the NGBs (again, regardless of personal opinions, the NRA and NSRA are the primary NGBs for target shooting. That is how a court will view it because they generally don't know any better).

In any case, the club is going to want it signed off by a nationally recognised body who will hold their hand through court in the event that the worst happens. Self-certifying just because you can is a fools game.
after all, it never hurts to have a second opinion from a body who do this for a living and see lots of different ranges in lots of different circumstances. Especially as you're correct in that the range design books are not all that good.

As to whether the NGBs "really do know what they are doing" I would venture that if they did , shooting in Britain wouldn't be in the parlous state it is. They are totally useless.

Remind me where the 2012 shooting events are being held?

As I said, their ineptitude at PR does not mean they know nothing about shooting.
If you want the NRA of GB to be the NRA of America, you will be waiting a very long time. They are two fundamentally different organisations.
- The NRA of America is a political lobbying organisation.
- The NRA of GB is a sports association that runs competitions and helps it's members conduct their sport in a safe and fair manner.

Pretty much everyone who slates the NRA of GB has utterly failed to grasp this concept and crucial distinction. The fact that they share a name is irrelevant. They are not the same organisation nor do they share the same purpose.

We have now fallen into a good equilibirum, where everyone basically focuses PR to BASC (a political lobbying organisation by design), who having spent squillions of quid on a shiny press centre are in the best position to deal with PR and politics on behalf of shooters.

The NRA of GB does what it does well. That it is not all things to all men does not diminish it's speciality knowledge.
Condemning them for not being PR specialists is retarded because that's not what their purpose or mission is, although they could have done better in the past in many respects.

As for 2012, that's a totally fallacious argument. When Tessa Jowell has been on record stating that "there is abslutely no way I'm letting the shooting go to Bisley" (OWTTE), then you're up the swanney to start with.
The whole thing has been a farce - LOCOG and the auditors visiting Bisley without actually bothering to talk to NSRA/NRA whilst they were there, dodgy accounting, back-slapping and corruption of the highest order. LOCOG is rotten to the core with self-serving individuals. What hope did anyone have? The decision was not based on finance or logic.

Originally Posted by Hemmers

Originally Posted by EX_STAB

Originally Posted by Hemmers

Originally Posted by EX_STAB

I don't have a great deal of time for the National Bodies but they will help you with this.

Yes, opinions of NGBs is irrelevant in this case as they now certify civvie ranges and issue RSCs since the MoD decided they didn't have time to do it for civvies.
You will have to deal with them whether you like it or not. And as inept as they may be at PR and politics, that's because they really know what they're doing with the actual sports side of it.
There is a joint NRA/NSRA range design booklet which is quite a lot of cut and paste from the MoD range design manual (don't fix it if it ain't broke!).<snip>

The NGB's do issue safety certificates. They have no standing in law and there is no requirement to have one though much as they might like that to be the case. You DO NOT need an NRA/NSRA Safety certificate to operate your range.
Anybody can write a range safety certificate, it's meaningless as there is no legislation or British Standard that it relates to. I can write you a certificate that says "I certify that this range is safe." You can write your own. No such requirement in law.

Every FAC held for target shooting has a condition which states you may only shoot on ranges with a Range Safety Certificate. No it doesn't, read the words.[b] It used to say MoD RSC, but new grants/renewals ones are now being modified to open them up to new ranges not certified by the MoD.
Although not de jure, it is generally accepted as de facto The NRA's legal adviser has told me personally that this is not the case.. that this means an RSC from a body who actually know what they're doing, as opposed to some Joe-Public individual glancing at the range and making a shiny certificate on MS Publisher.
What it comes down to is that if there is an accident, you need the full risk assessment and design process, etc, etc to demonstrate that the club is not at fault and has followed the advice and bets practice as laid down by the NGBs (again, regardless of personal opinions, the NRA and NSRA are the primary NGBs for target shooting. That is how a court will view it because they generally don't know any better).

In any case, the club is going to want it signed off by a nationally recognised body who will hold their hand through court in the event that the worst happens. Self-certifying just because you can is a fools game.
after all, it never hurts to have a second opinion from a body who do this for a living and see lots of different ranges in lots of different circumstances. Especially as you're correct in that the range design books are not all that good.

As to whether the NGBs "really do know what they are doing" I would venture that if they did , shooting in Britain wouldn't be in the parlous state it is. They are totally useless.

Remind me where the 2012 shooting events are being held?

As I said, their ineptitude at PR does not mean they know nothing about shooting.
If you want the NRA of GB to be the NRA of America, you will be waiting a very long time. They are two fundamentally different organisations.
- The NRA of America is a political lobbying organisation.
- The NRA of GB is a sports association that runs competitions and helps it's members conduct their sport in a safe and fair manner.

Pretty much everyone who slates the NRA of GB has utterly failed to grasp this concept and crucial distinction. The fact that they share a name is irrelevant. They are not the same organisation nor do they share the same purpose.

We have now fallen into a good equilibirum, where everyone basically focuses PR to BASC (a political lobbying organisation by design), who having spent squillions of quid on a shiny press centre are in the best position to deal with PR and politics on behalf of shooters.

The NRA of GB does what it does well. That it is not all things to all men does not diminish it's speciality knowledge.
Condemning them for not being PR specialists is retarded because that's not what their purpose or mission is, although they could have done better in the past in many respects.

As for 2012, that's a totally fallacious argument. When Tessa Jowell has been on record stating that "there is abslutely no way I'm letting the shooting go to Bisley" (OWTTE), then you're up the swanney to start with.
The whole thing has been a farce - LOCOG and the auditors visiting Bisley without actually bothering to talk to NSRA/NRA whilst they were there, dodgy accounting, back-slapping and corruption of the highest order. LOCOG is rotten to the core with self-serving individuals. What hope did anyone have? The decision was not based on finance or logic.

I'll leave teh 2012 discussion to another time as I'm going out but note the comments in blue above.

If you read the conditions, they state "The (firearms) shall be used for target shooting, and only whilst a member of club XYZ, on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm, and with adequate financial arrangements in place to meet any injury or damage claim"

No mention of safety certificates, national governing bodies and so on. You need to convince your insurer and clearly you have a duty of care to range users and the wider public to make sure it is safe for the calibres and disciplines that you use it for but no certificates are required.

Hi all

I am joining this thread a bit late in the day but I have a question for all. We are presently going through a grants process and part of this is for a refurb of our indoor 25m .22 range (6 lanes) and 10m .177 range (8 lanes). It would be great if we could get the lighting updated. Is there anyone out there can advise on the best lighting systems out there for these sorts of ranges.

Thanks

Just a quick thought (in complete ignorance) but I can imagine that careful consideration of the needs of the disabled is a must. For two reasons: firstly if you ever want to apply for external funding (Sport England etc.) it will be a given and secondly we tend to pay lip service to the needs of the disabled yet we now see more and more of our fellows returning from Afghanistan sadly in that category.