Thread: re barrel or not ???

Gents,
would like to sound out my fellow shooters first to get a good opinion on what to do re re-barreling my rifle.
I have a remmie 700 on a ACIS in .223. trouble is it's a 1 in 12 twist so can only put down 55 grainers, anything heavier & it chucks them all over the place. Should i re-barrel or not ? it's fine for large vermin & up and around the 300 to 400 mark, but would idealy love to shoot it on longer distances.

Originally Posted by Concrete_Marmoset

Gents,
would like to sound out my fellow shooters first to get a good opinion on what to do re re-barreling my rifle.
I have a remmie 700 on a ACIS in .223. trouble is it's a 1 in 12 twist so can only put down 55 grainers, anything heavier & it chucks them all over the place. Should i re-barrel or not ? it's fine for large vermin & up and around the 300 to 400 mark, but would idealy love to shoot it on longer distances.

If you want to go further you need heavier bullets.
If you want to shoot beyond 400m on a regular basis you really need something bigger than 5.56

a 1:9 or 1:7 barrel in .223 will get you to 600m but you'd do it with a lot less fuss using 308.
You might be able to re-barrel your 700 in an intermediate calibre such as 6.5 BR which will give you the range. 6.5 Grendel or 6.8SPC will work in that action I'm pretty sure but of course you'll have to handload.

There are plenty of American shooters who would disagree with you with your 400 m comment!

John Feamster has been shooting AR 15 space guns at 1000 yards with 81/82 grain bullets for decades, and winning matches. But then he does also take some of the space guns bench resting!

For those heavy bullets you do really need 1:7 twist.

Originally Posted by Concrete_Marmoset

Gents,
would like to sound out my fellow shooters first to get a good opinion on what to do re re-barreling my rifle.
I have a remmie 700 on a ACIS in .223. trouble is it's a 1 in 12 twist so can only put down 55 grainers, anything heavier & it chucks them all over the place. Should i re-barrel or not ? it's fine for large vermin & up and around the 300 to 400 mark, but would idealy love to shoot it on longer distances.

Yes, rebarrel in .223 as you know the round, have the dies etc. You should find good prices from gunsmiths struggling with sales and more than happy to have a deal for gunsmithing work (more margins). Button rifled 'Archer' barrels from border barrels in Scotland is a good cheap compromise and being UK made will help with the price (I imagine Lothar Walther and US imports are not such a bargain as they used to be).

Steer clear of Lothar-Walther at the moment, particularly in the common borings, since the quality is variable and it has been alleged that they do not replace the tooling often enough.

Back in my target rifle days I never noticed a difference between a good, cut barrel and a good, buttoned barrel -- indeed Jon Cloade (one of the GB target rifle people) was shooting a buttoned Border barrel back in my day, and I assume that he still is. There does exist however this enormous prejudice in favour of cut barrels (unless you are Peter Sarony who favours hammer forged, but then he would because he makes them so may not be an impartial judge of the issue!)

Originally Posted by stoatman

Steer clear of Lothar-Walther at the moment, particularly in the common borings, since the quality is variable and it has been alleged that they do not replace the tooling often enough.

Back in my target rifle days I never noticed a difference between a good, cut barrel and a good, buttoned barrel -- indeed Jon Cloade (one of the GB target rifle people) was shooting a buttoned Border barrel back in my day, and I assume that he still is. There does exist however this enormous prejudice in favour of cut barrels (unless you are Peter Sarony who favours hammer forged, but then he would because he makes them so may not be an impartial judge of the issue!)

Has he actually got the plant out of storage and into production then? :8

Originally Posted by stoatman

Steer clear of Lothar-Walther at the moment, particularly in the common borings, since the quality is variable and it has been alleged that they do not replace the tooling often enough.

Back in my target rifle days I never noticed a difference between a good, cut barrel and a good, buttoned barrel -- indeed Jon Cloade (one of the GB target rifle people) was shooting a buttoned Border barrel back in my day, and I assume that he still is. There does exist however this enormous prejudice in favour of cut barrels (unless you are Peter Sarony who favours hammer forged, but then he would because he makes them so may not be an impartial judge of the issue!)

Tell me more - I am just thinking to order one in 7mm08...

Originally Posted by EX_STAB

Originally Posted by stoatman

Steer clear of Lothar-Walther at the moment, particularly in the common borings, since the quality is variable and it has been alleged that they do not replace the tooling often enough.

Back in my target rifle days I never noticed a difference between a good, cut barrel and a good, buttoned barrel -- indeed Jon Cloade (one of the GB target rifle people) was shooting a buttoned Border barrel back in my day, and I assume that he still is. There does exist however this enormous prejudice in favour of cut barrels (unless you are Peter Sarony who favours hammer forged, but then he would because he makes them so may not be an impartial judge of the issue!)

Has he actually got the plant out of storage and into production then? :8

As I heard it: yes he has. He told me last year that he had it all set up and then was told by his landlord that he had to move the plant somewhere else, so it all had to go back into storage for a while until he could find a new site. I notice from his adverts that he is now offering brand new hammer forged .303 barrels, which must be the first new .303 barrels made in about 60 years.

Hammer forged barrels are good for the military because they are cheaper to make in volume and more resistant to wear. IIRC an SA80 barrel is good for at least 10,000 rounds, whereas a button rifled M4 is out of spec by 3,000.

For the target shooter it's not so clear cut. There are relatively few precision rifles built with hammer forged barrels (Armalon, Steyr SSG), but there seem to be plenty of good button or cut rifled barrels available. Geoff Kolbe of Border Barrels reckons a cut barrel is superior (but then he would, wouldn't he?). But his button rifled Archer barrels seem every bit as good and a fair bit cheaper.

Originally Posted by Gun_Nut

Originally Posted by EX_STAB

Originally Posted by stoatman

Steer clear of Lothar-Walther at the moment, particularly in the common borings, since the quality is variable and it has been alleged that they do not replace the tooling often enough.

Back in my target rifle days I never noticed a difference between a good, cut barrel and a good, buttoned barrel -- indeed Jon Cloade (one of the GB target rifle people) was shooting a buttoned Border barrel back in my day, and I assume that he still is. There does exist however this enormous prejudice in favour of cut barrels (unless you are Peter Sarony who favours hammer forged, but then he would because he makes them so may not be an impartial judge of the issue!)

Has he actually got the plant out of storage and into production then? :8

As I heard it: yes he has. He told me last year that he had it all set up and then was told by his landlord that he had to move the plant somewhere else, so it all had to go back into storage for a while until he could find a new site. I notice from his adverts that he is now offering brand new hammer forged .303 barrels, which must be the first new .303 barrels made in about 60 years.

Hammer forged barrels are good for the military because they are cheaper to make in volume and more resistant to wear. IIRC an SA80 barrel is good for at least 10,000 rounds, whereas a button rifled M4 is out of spec by 3,000.

For the target shooter it's not so clear cut. There are relatively few precision rifles built with hammer forged barrels (Armalon, Steyr SSG), but there seem to be plenty of good button or cut rifled barrels available. Geoff Kolbe of Border Barrels reckons a cut barrel is superior (but then he would, wouldn't he?). But his button rifled Archer barrels seem every bit as good and a fair bit cheaper.

My TRG has a hammer forged, chrome lined barrel and has been known to shoot 0.8" groups at 400yds. In theory, hammer forging ought to make the best barrels but I think it requires standards of quality control that many people fail to achieve.

Can't see any actual barrels on Armalon's site.

Originally Posted by Gun_Nut

[
Hammer forged barrels are good for the military because they are cheaper to make in volume and more resistant to wear. IIRC an SA80 barrel is good for at least 10,000 rounds, whereas a button rifled M4 is out of spec by 3,000.
.

The chrome lining has a lot to do with that as well.

There is also another small barrel maker in the UK, Arthur Smith, but I have no idea how to contact him directly. He cuts, and will do one-offs. The barrel for my 7.62 x 39 Australian International Arms project is one of his, and is currently lying in wait with my tame gunsmith.

Here is the definitive article about barrel manufacture, written by Geoff Kolbe 14 years ago. http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature%20...anufacture.htm. One has to bear in mind though that when he wrote this, Border only made cut rifled barrels. Since then they have invested in button rifled as well.

Not heard of Arthur Smith before. I guess that now means we have 3 or 4 barrel manufacturers in the UK:

- Border Barrels: cut and button rifled;
- Armalon: hammer forged;
- Arthur Smith: cut rifled;
- Ben Taylor: cold forging - still in development, airguns & rimfire

I wonder if the bad exchange rates will see the UK barrels becoming better value than the imports?

[quote="Gun_Nut"][quote="EX_STAB"]

Originally Posted by stoatman

Hammer forged barrels are good for the military because they are cheaper to make in volume and more resistant to wear. IIRC an SA80 barrel is good for at least 10,000 rounds, whereas a button rifled M4 is out of spec by 3,000.

For the target shooter it's not so clear cut. There are relatively few precision rifles built with hammer forged barrels (Armalon, Steyr SSG), but there seem to be plenty of good button or cut rifled barrels available. Geoff Kolbe of Border Barrels reckons a cut barrel is superior (but then he would, wouldn't he?). But his button rifled Archer barrels seem every bit as good and a fair bit cheaper.

Statement in bold = bollocks. In truth, the mil spec barrels on the M4 are also chrome lined & last very much in excess of 3,000 rounds. But then, WTF would I know, I have been involved in the manufacture of M4 style rifles in the US for the last 5 years is all....

You may be confusing the mil spec that calls out for the barrel to last a MINIMUM of 3,000 rounds & also with the Mk 18 10.5" barreled guns that tend to wear out gas ports in around that round count.

I have talked with Peter Sarony in the past in an attempt to import HF barrels to the US but there were multiple regulatory issues that prevented that happening.

The endless debate continues between the proponents of cut, buttoned & HF barrels but one thing is usually true of ALL the methods; the resulting barrel, properly mated to the weapons system will usually out shoot the average firer.

One last point: chrome lining does nothing to improve the ability of a barrel to shoot or not. Rifling is actually electro-polished out of the barrel in order to chrome it. How much is removed is dependent on the call out of the end user but normally it is no more than 1 thou to 2 thou. A crap barrel can't be made to shoot well by chrome lining or every barrel maker would chrome line their products.

Lesson Endex.

Originally Posted by Gun_Nut

Here is the definitive article about barrel manufacture, written by Geoff Kolbe 14 years ago. http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature%20...anufacture.htm. One has to bear in mind though that when he wrote this, Border only made cut rifled barrels. Since then they have invested in button rifled as well.

Not heard of Arthur Smith before. I guess that now means we have 3 or 4 barrel manufacturers in the UK:

- Border Barrels: cut and button rifled;
- Armalon: hammer forged;
- Arthur Smith: cut rifled;
- Ben Taylor: cold forging - still in development, airguns & rimfire

I wonder if the bad exchange rates will see the UK barrels becoming better value than the imports?

BSA too although they only make air rifle barrels at present. - hammer forged.

Originally Posted by gunfighter1763

Originally Posted by Gun nut

Hammer forged barrels are good for the military because they are cheaper to make in volume and more resistant to wear. IIRC an SA80 barrel is good for at least 10,000 rounds, whereas a button rifled M4 is out of spec by 3,000.

For the target shooter it's not so clear cut. There are relatively few precision rifles built with hammer forged barrels (Armalon, Steyr SSG), but there seem to be plenty of good button or cut rifled barrels available. Geoff Kolbe of Border Barrels reckons a cut barrel is superior (but then he would, wouldn't he?). But his button rifled Archer barrels seem every bit as good and a fair bit cheaper.

Statement in bold = balls. In truth, the mil spec barrels on the M4 are also chrome lined & last very much in excess of 3,000 rounds. But then, WTF would I know, I have been involved in the manufacture of M4 style rifles in the US for the last 5 years is all....

You may be confusing the mil spec that calls out for the barrel to last a MINIMUM of 3,000 rounds & also with the Mk 18 10.5" barreled guns that tend to wear out gas ports in around that round count.

I have talked with Peter Sarony in the past in an attempt to import HF barrels to the US but there were multiple regulatory issues that prevented that happening.

The endless debate continues between the proponents of cut, buttoned & HF barrels but one thing is usually true of ALL the methods; the resulting barrel, properly mated to the weapons system will usually out shoot the average firer.

One last point: chrome lining does nothing to improve the ability of a barrel to shoot or not. Rifling is actually electro-polished out of the barrel in order to chrome it. How much is removed is dependent on the call out of the end user but normally it is no more than 1 thou to 2 thou. A crap barrel can't be made to shoot well by chrome lining or every barrel maker would chrome line their products.

Lesson Endex.

Bold:

In comparing two brand new barrels this would be true but take the same two barrels after, say, 3000 rounds and I would expect the chromed one to perform better, (given that they were of similar standard to start with) purely because it will have worn less and suffered less corrosion.

[quote="gunfighter1763"][quote="Gun_Nut"]

Originally Posted by EX_STAB

Originally Posted by stoatman

Hammer forged barrels are good for the military because they are cheaper to make in volume and more resistant to wear. IIRC an SA80 barrel is good for at least 10,000 rounds, whereas a button rifled M4 is out of spec by 3,000.

For the target shooter it's not so clear cut. There are relatively few precision rifles built with hammer forged barrels (Armalon, Steyr SSG), but there seem to be plenty of good button or cut rifled barrels available. Geoff Kolbe of Border Barrels reckons a cut barrel is superior (but then he would, wouldn't he?). But his button rifled Archer barrels seem every bit as good and a fair bit cheaper.

Statement in bold = balls. In truth, the mil spec barrels on the M4 are also chrome lined & last very much in excess of 3,000 rounds. But then, WTF would I know, I have been involved in the manufacture of M4 style rifles in the US for the last 5 years is all....

You may be confusing the mil spec that calls out for the barrel to last a MINIMUM of 3,000 rounds & also with the Mk 18 10.5" barreled guns that tend to wear out gas ports in around that round count.

I have talked with Peter Sarony in the past in an attempt to import HF barrels to the US but there were multiple regulatory issues that prevented that happening.

The endless debate continues between the proponents of cut, buttoned & HF barrels but one thing is usually true of ALL the methods; the resulting barrel, properly mated to the weapons system will usually out shoot the average firer.

One last point: chrome lining does nothing to improve the ability of a barrel to shoot or not. Rifling is actually electro-polished out of the barrel in order to chrome it. How much is removed is dependent on the call out of the end user but normally it is no more than 1 thou to 2 thou. A crap barrel can't be made to shoot well by chrome lining or every barrel maker would chrome line their products.

Lesson Endex.

You are quite right - I had muddled up the figures in my head between the MRBF and the barrel life of an M4. The Mil Spec is for 6,000 rounds in an M4 before the barrel is changed. Of course, if the user does lots of full-auto fire, the barrel will wear out much more quickly.

However my point is the same: hammer forged barrels last much longer than button rifled and I don't think that it can be attributed just to chrome linings. It is interesting to note on AR15.com that US civilian shooters are keen to get their hands on hammer forged barrels from Colt Canada (Diemaco).