Originally Posted by greengoblin

We obviously all have our own opinions on this and no one can disagree with QR's etc I can understand the whole idea of the longer career business but it doesn't mean I have to like it! I thought it was the serviceperson's parogative to complain!!

However:

Biscuits A_B wrote

It doesn't matter a toss whether some 8 year loser is happy or not. He'll do as he's f*cking well told. If he was worth anything to the Army he wouldn't still be a butt f*ck at 8 years.

This is a load of toss. Aside from the whole inter-service issues which we could go around in circles on all day, what I was trying to get at is that some corps or regts or whatever have different promotion timings. For example an average Int Corps soldier could expect to reach the rank of Full Cpl within 2 1/2 years whereas a soldier in another trade could take twice as long, if not more. I'm not saying that the rank shouldn't be respected, just that career progression could be very different depending on what corps/regt you may find yourself in. What count as average promotion timings in one area may not be the same in another. I apologise if I was not clear

Then try to do so in the future you tube.

Majority of people in all 3 services have to earn their rank and if they get promoted quickly fair do's to them if they dont tough sh1t thats the way it goes, you have to manage your career and promote your own profile for the powers that be that write your CR's.

But i have more respect for something i pick off the underside of my boot than for the likes of techs who at end of the day get the rank for retention purposes i.e the pay that goes with it with their special boxes of cornflakes when finish training etc., why not just give them a higher pay band instead of promoting them for the pay.
Does anyone have a reason why some nugget that sticks something into a diagnostics machine and watchs a dvd while it runs needs to be a L/Cpl straight out of training?, same goes for air techs, glorified vm's who work on aircraft, yes your training is longer and you get an awesome qualification but do you need to be a L/Cpl after training? Who are you going to order around? the young RLC storeman in the Stores perhaps?
I have come across a lot cfn in my own Corps and other pte's who have shown more maturity and sense of responsibility than most of the Cpl's that were techs at one of my previous units.

End of the day system is the way it is and isnt going to change anytime soon. Show respect to people above yourselves if they are deserving it and most WO's are because they have worked their t1ts off and know their sh1t. But techs can get to fcuk! Or on that matter anyone that i know personally that is a yes man and is a total bumlick that will not back his lads up even when they know they are wrong can do the same. I work on the fact that if the lad/girl has messed up by simple lack of ignorance or they have a genuine reason i will try to help them out and lessen the punishment if cant do anything else, but i hate to see people who just let their troops get fcuked over because they dont want to tarnish their own name and get a bad rep with the person that writes their CR.

Originally Posted by scrubber

I am currently working at an RAF station, and have been for the last three months. I initially came to my new post with my eyes open, even though I had heard horror stories of how the Army personnel were treated. But over this short time in post I am shocked to discover the blatant disregard for the Army Lads and Lasses. The majority of the times they are treated like second class citizens when their counter parts in the RAF treated like gods.

Now before you all rip into me and say ‘Do something about it’ I have, but what a pointless act that was. I brought up all the issues and mismanagements happening in the department and in response I got the following. ‘Whilst in an RAF managed team we will manage as the RAF.’

Now this is all well and good but when promotional courses are being ignored because they are irrelevant to the RAF something is going wrong. Also issues have occurred with Report writing, AGAI 67 and even RAF to Army rank translation. For some reason they think a LCpl not an NCO but the equivalent to a SAC, and a flight Sgt is not equivalent to a SSgt, instead they are equivalent to a WO2? Madness! One WO did not even know that a WO2 gets a Warrant! I mean the clue is in the name!!!!

Has anyone else had problems with the RAF before?

This hoary old chestnut eh?

Never one to shy away from a fight....here my twopench worth!

First things first, Scrubber, don't you even dare to comment on how bad it is being Army working for the RAF until you've experienced just how bad it is being RAF working for the Army and suffering the massive inferiority complex/penis size issue you experience from the other side!

I have worked in many "Joint" posts in my career (Such as it is!) and belive me, from an RAF point of view, there is nothing Joint once the Army arrive. Our ACR's (RAF Form 6000's for those in the know) are treated with contempt and written "Our Way", with no regard for what we actually need in them.

I am currently in another Joint post, where I have a couple of Army Siggies working with me....please note I said "with" and not "for", as treat all those working with me with the respect that they deserve, regardless of rank. I do my level best to accommodate their army requirements where ever it is possible/practical to do so. In all my time working for the Army, nothing like that courtesy was ever shown to me or to any other RAF personnel from the Army.

Now down to the rank equivalency issue. Frankly, we crabs do have a bit of an issue with it, as it simply doesn't work across the services. I'l leave the RN out of this, as frankly even their own kind don't respect their rank system. This was shown to me only last week in a RN base down south, when, as I signed into the mess I was told that I couldn't fill in the rank, name and number parts of the form myself, and that the mess statt would have to copy it directly from my ID card. When I asked why this was, I was told that "we cannot trust the Royal Navy PO's not to lie!". Now, I always had my suspicions about them in the first place, but now even their own kind don't trust them.

As far as the Army/RAF thing goes.....well, to be fair, those Flight Sergeants that have come the I'm equivalent of a WO2, should go out and have a word with themselves.....we all know that it doesn't quite equate. However, I would most certainly suggest that the RAF expect much more from a 10 year SAC than the Army does from a 3 year L/Cpl. Issues also arise from 17 Year RAF Cpls being treated the same as 7 Year Army Cpls, etc.

Like it or not, RAF promotion has always been much slower than the other services. This is simply down to the fact that we have much more time to get in fewer ranks. This does not excuse the fact that the Army regularly choose to ignore the experience that the time served will bring to the table, whereas the RAF will. Of course, the individual concerned will have quite a bearing on the situation and can exacerbate the issue with some ill chosen words, however, we don't like being treated as sh1t, as you seem to treat some of your NCO's. A bit of respect goes a long way.

I have been at many forums with senior commanders where this issue has been brought up, and their answer is that they feel that they can do nothing about it. I and many others disagree and feel that something should be done about it.

As for the Army lads I am responsible for, I personally have never treated them any different to the RAF lads.....and I think that it has been appreciated....although I now stand to be corrected.

One last thing. Nearly every Army Cpl that has worked with my has been sorry to be going back to the green army as the know that they are in for all the bullsh1t and bolox again, that simply doesn't happen with us, as we look at the man/woman and not the rank and treat people as grown ups.

I'm sure that many of you pongo's will take umbrage at some of this, and frankly, bring it on! I'm quite prepared to stand by my comments, as all can be backed up.

Sorry, one more last thing....whoever suggested that Jnr Tech is equivalent to L/cpl needs to get back in his box. A Jnr Tech is a non-supervisory/non disciplinary rank, it allowed them to sign off work....that's all. I'd have loved to have seen a JT telling an SAC what to do, and to have seen what he got back!

Oh my god....I can't belive how long that post was.....someone really must have rattled my cage!

Originally Posted by SpannerSpanker

Majority of people in all 3 services have to earn their rank and if they get promoted quickly fair do's to them if they dont tough sh1t thats the way it goes, you have to manage your career and promote your own profile for the powers that be that write your CR's.

But i have more respect for something i pick off the underside of my boot than for the likes of techs who at end of the day get the rank for retention purposes i.e the pay that goes with it with their special boxes of cornflakes when finish training etc., why not just give them a higher pay band instead of promoting them for the pay.
Does anyone have a reason why some nugget that sticks something into a diagnostics machine and watchs a dvd while it runs needs to be a L/Cpl straight out of training?, same goes for air techs, glorified vm's who work on aircraft, yes your training is longer and you get an awesome qualification but do you need to be a L/Cpl after training? Who are you going to order around? the young RLC storeman in the Stores perhaps?
I have come across a lot cfn in my own Corps and other pte's who have shown more maturity and sense of responsibility than most of the Cpl's that were techs at one of my previous units.

End of the day system is the way it is and isnt going to change anytime soon. Show respect to people above yourselves if they are deserving it and most WO's are because they have worked their t1ts off and know their sh1t. But techs can get to fcuk! Or on that matter anyone that i know personally that is a yes man and is a total bumlick that will not back his lads up even when they know they are wrong can do the same. I work on the fact that if the lad/girl has messed up by simple lack of ignorance or they have a genuine reason i will try to help them out and lessen the punishment if cant do anything else, but i hate to see people who just let their troops get fcuked over because they dont want to tarnish their own name and get a bad rep with the person that writes their CR.

Unfortunatly, yes I can see a reason for it, and you have already mentioned it. Retention.

The service has no other way to pay someone more to keep them in other than to promote them. What's the point in paying lots of money to train them if they are going to bugger off to civvy street and earn lots more bucks, so they pay them more the only way they can...promotion. That's the problem with an inflexible system.

Originally Posted by combatintman

To get back on thread though - if the troops are being career fouled then that is wrong. If it is malicious then that is well-wrong and I'm not sure how that can be resolved but if it is because of lack of education then the crab hierarchy in your unit need edumucating.

I've worked with crabs for longer than I would like and I have to say that in general once they know what's required they are pretty good - just pitch it in a non-confrontational way - show them the various AGAI's/QR's and they usually respond positively. Although I have many complaints about them - they have never fcuked the career of me or any of my blokes around unless I/they deserved it.

I got really excited about the though of fcuking your carer, until I read it properly.

Originally Posted by Afterburner

Originally Posted by G104MEN

I find a striking similarity in mentality between those of all 3 services that carry out technical roles.The rank is less important on a one to one basis, and the ability to do the job is regarded more highly. :D

Nail hit squarely (as I would expect from a REME techie :D ). Incidentally some people have similar issues with "crab air crew" who pass out of training as sgts and are therefore seen as not earning their rank. Again the fact is, they wear it, so they can exercise it.

Agreed but and a big but it is, do they have the knowledge and expertise to hold that rank without looking and being a complete C*nt and possibly destroying someone else's career through their lack of seniority

Infiltrator if you were referring to my post about the JT/LCpl issue please note I fully realise that they do not equate. It's not hard anyone can see on the rank posters. What I said was:

Whilst I agree completely that there are guidelines setdown as to which rank equates to which you must still first think about how you are treating people and respect them for the service they have given. Although a Lcpl straight out of training is still technically higher than a JT are you telling me a JT with 6 years experience (Having done the same job the Lcpl is just embarking on) should be happy with a Lcpl coming the big I am with them!! I don't think so.

Originally Posted by greengoblin

Infiltrator if you were referring to my post about the JT/LCpl issue please note I fully realise that they do not equate. It's not hard anyone can see on the rank posters. What I said was:

Whilst I agree completely that there are guidelines setdown as to which rank equates to which you must still first think about how you are treating people and respect them for the service they have given. Although a Lcpl straight out of training is still technically higher than a JT are you telling me a JT with 6 years experience (Having done the same job the Lcpl is just embarking on) should be happy with a Lcpl coming the big I am with them!! I don't think so.

GG,

I was indeed not commenting on your post....as I actually agree with everything you said.

My point was aimed at Sammers on page 1 of the thread with his comment

However, when I got that rank we were always told to consider ourselves “sort of like a lance corporal” but a lite version without most of the powers of a lance jack. In truth, once you were posted to a Sqn, what mattered most was who had the most experience. Only a brave JT would arrive straight from training and try to boss around SAC’s with many years experience...

To me, this sounds dangerously like he is trying to say that a Jnr Tech would be able to boss around an SAC once he has a few years under his belt....don't know what Air Force he served in, but it wasn't mine. If a Jnr Tech ever tried to throw his weight about with the SAC's, he'd soon be given short shrift, that's for sure! A light version of a L/Cpl indeed!

Hrumph!

Originally Posted by Afterburner

Originally Posted by G104MEN

I find a striking similarity in mentality between those of all 3 services that carry out technical roles.The rank is less important on a one to one basis, and the ability to do the job is regarded more highly. :D

Nail hit squarely (as I would expect from a REME techie :D ). Incidentally some people have similar issues with "crab air crew" who pass out of training as sgts and are therefore seen as not earning their rank. Again the fact is, they wear it, so they can exercise it.

Cheers mate!!, :D (but ,please, I'm a storeman not a Tech!!)
My brother in law passed out of training at 19 years old as a Sgt loadmaster.He told me the reason is because they carry The Army in the aircraft.
A lot of posts have mentioned the difference between rank & experience, but I do wonder what an Army Infantry fullscrew/Stripey would make of a 19 year old of ANY service with no time served,(I leave VERY JUNIOR officers out of this, most are too scared of their own shadows to question an experienced NCO) gobbing off at them.I fully understand that as air crew they have a myriad of safety issues to contend with, but, do they have the people skills/"life experience" to know how to get people to do what they need them to do without embarrasing themselves and others?? This is surely what comes with time served, etc,etc. That said though, if I could have been on a Sgt aircrews wage at 19 and lived in the mess........ say no more!!