Originally Posted by Infiltrator

Guru, It's a fair cop!

But seriously, there's knobs in all walks of life, you know it, and I know it. I, for one, am sorry that in general the Army get such a poor impression of FS's. That said, the RAF get an equally poor impression of WO2's. Most are OK, but, and here's the rub, some are have such feelings of, what can only be interpreted as, insecurity that they fall back on the tired old "where's your warrant then?" cliche.

The Army has never, in my experience, been able to look past the rank. I see it every day in the joint environment. Talk to an officer, to another senior or whatever and as soon as they know you are going to talk to them, their eyes are looking for the rank so that they can instantly decide if they have to listen to you or not.

In my last job, we had to deploy frequently, and we had to make our RAF Cpls up to acting Sgt. Why? Only because the Army would not listen to, or take advice from a Cpl. Although the Cpl's that we were sending out were very experienced, had done a minimum of 15 years. The Army seem to think that if you are still a Cpl at that time, you have failed and cannot be very good. Whereas in fact, we see them as on the money. Yes, some are gimps and will always be so, but by the same token, the majority are good blokes.

I am currently working with SSgts who were made up to that rank at 10 & 11 years. Good for them. Actually, they are top notch guys who know their stuff. However, do they have any more experience than an RAF guy that is a Cpl? I'd argue that probably not. The RAF guy is likely to be far more specialised in his role having not been moved around so much in that time.

Again, it's horses for courses. In a field environment I'd be very comfortable being told what to do by an Army Cpl who, after all, knows far more about it than I. So, why do Army Seniors and Officers seem unable to do the same when an RAF Cpl who know's exactly what he's doing gives advice to them on what can and cannot be done in regard to the job he's been sent out to do? This is where the RAF's lack of respect for Army rank stems from.

At my current unit, I look around and I see WO2's doing exactly the job that I would be doing at an RAF unit, whereas the SSgts and the FS's are doing jobs that, frankly, an RAF Cpl could do with his eyes shut. When we work with the Army we get an automatic rank downgrade based on the job that we do. Not the Army's fault, but to get the same level of experience and time served to get it, you need a much higher rank. The RAF then know, that if we were to grade the job properly and actually put in the rank that the job needs, there would be a huge disparity, so we all go back a couple of places.

Don't get me wrong, if the powers that be want me to do a Cpls job, after 27 years in and still pay me as an Army WO2, then it's money for old rope.

The RAF don't want, nor need, WO2. We know that it would simply lead, in the long term, to a dilution of WO posts an mean that promotion is even rarer than it is now.

As for the gimps on this forum stating that they've punched FS's for it or that they've seen them being taken out for some drill by the SSM or whatever......yes, of course they did! If you'll excuse me, I've got to meet a bus load of nurses that are due any moment!

p.s. Exhausting!

On the other hand, I work with some FS and CT who can't even do half the job that our Cpls do. In saying that, I mean both my Army and RAF Cpls.

I did have a FS saying she outranked me once, which I played along with, honour being the better part of discretion, and I'm glad i did. I was wearing her ankles as ear-warmers within the hour, then she really found out who the boss was.

It's all a little silly though, because the facts are that FS was instituted as the equivalent rank of SSgt on formation of the RAF. WO2 was abolished in the RAF in 1939 when all WO2s and WO1s were combined into the single rank of WO, and then CT was instigated in 1950 for "Flight Sergeants in a technical role". Seems pretty crystal to me, and bottom line is that SSgt/FS/CT/CSgt are all OR7.

If you are ever in the situation for Mess functions and the like regarding seniority, I suggest you point out to the CMC what the RAFs own webpage states (which is concurrent with QRs)

"In many cases, the Royal Air Force rank will be the junior of the three Services, the Royal Navy having seniority over both the Army and RAF."

RAF - Non-Commissioned Ranks

Then smile sweetly as you look down the table at them.

Originally Posted by verticalgyro

On the other hand, I work with some FS and CT who can't even do half the job that our Cpls do. In saying that, I mean both my Army and RAF Cpls.

That's what I found - they were absolutely cracking at their one job be it fixing engines, polishing canopies or being a clerk. Where they fell several levels below the Army was their ability to multi task, so throw them something outside their very tight job description & they could not cope.

I once asked a Flt Lt about their MS responsibilities or anything they did outside flying. They looked at me as if something didn't compute...

Originally Posted by CaptainPlume

That's what I found - they were absolutely cracking at their one job be it fixing engines, polishing canopies or being a clerk. Where they fell several levels below the Army was their ability to multi task, so throw them something outside their very tight job description & they could not cope.

I once asked a Flt Lt about their MS responsibilities or anything they did outside flying. They looked at me as if something didn't compute...

Sounds like you are describing an American serviceman there, but that is obviously a different thread!

Originally Posted by slipperman

Sounds like you are describing an American serviceman there, but that is obviously a different thread!

No, really! The Jungly pilots were DOs for various of their Ratings & after sorties were involved in all sorts of other tasks including stuff round the aircraft with the Engineers & admin. The Crabs landed, got out & practically chucked the keys over their shoulders at the crew chief (or whatever he was called) before buggering off to gym/mess/scratcher.

I'm surprised something amusing like trashing idiot jock independence gets locked in 2 pages due to repetition, whereas this bollocks is perennial. I've never seen a FS claim to be equivalent to WO2 in either joint or single service environments.

I have many a time seen RAF SNCOs bemoan the fact their army counterpart often seems to be able to get a 3rd up and get in the mess in 6-8 years (corps-dependent).

This truism is due to the RAF career structure being based on 18-55, and the army being on 18-40 for 22. Get your RSM in 22 or GTFO. Hence young seeming seniors. An RAF Sgt on 22 has possibly another 15 years of joy, whereas his browner compadre could with (admittedly) talent be the badge.

Any RAF FS claiming equivalency to a WO2 would be as big a twat as any pongo claiming every single FS in the RAF thinks this.

If you haven't got a Warrant (whether in the Army or the RAF), you're not a Warrant Officer, nor do you equate to one. Seems to me that the only Arm in this exchange who have an issue with that are the RAF. Grow up lads, accept that you are going to meet with soldiers substantially younger than you who will outrank you and if push comes to shove, you will address that soldier as Sir or Ma'am. If you wanted quicker promotion perhaps you should have joined the Army, but then you would have a shorter career. Swings and roundabouts. I cannot see why the RAF have insecurities over this, but in my experience it's an issue that they insist upon bringing up within the first 10 minutes of any discussion.

It's sad fellas, fucking sad. Grow up, accept the situation for what it is and move your lives on.

Originally Posted by Infiltrator

Guru, It's a fair cop!

But seriously, there's knobs in all walks of life, you know it, and I know it. I, for one, am sorry that in general the Army get such a poor impression of FS's.

I think your slightly missing the point of the OP. Why do FS seem to believe and spout the fact they are equivalent? It took about 3 hrs in Cyprus for the FS to come out with this comment - completely unprompted and in general conversation. Personally I couldn't have given a toss but he obviously felt that it needed saying even though his job was separate to mine.

With regard to your horses for courses, advice is recieved from all ranks/trades, good or bad its up to the individual whether to act upon it.

Admittedly, I have never heard a FS claiming to be equivalent to a WO2, but I have heard a FS say they outrank SSgt, which implies the same. That was a one-off situation as described above, and as it was in the mess bar with subsequent fall-out of me getting my legs blown up, I am willing to assume she wasn't 100% serious.

However, a CT who I work with did tell me that a FS was a higher rank than him. Bizarre people, crabs.

Originally Posted by batfink5537

i have also in the past had an RAF SAC claim to be the equivelent rank to a L/CPL when in reality he is a PTE equivelent.

Off course the SAC isn't a NCO, but in experience of his trade a senior SAC will run rings around a baby L/Cpl, hence the problems!

Originally Posted by verticalgyro

Admittedly, I have never heard a FS claiming to be equivalent to a WO2...

I have, on a number of occasions. It's always mentioned more as a challenge to you, than as a matter of fact. I just ignored the cunts until it came to dishing out the jobs...and then along with everyone else 'Flight' was told what his task for the day was to be...by me. You don't need to get shirty or lower yourself to their standards. Just give them a job and tell them when you want it done for. In the interests of good management, I always reminded them that I had an open door policy and if they got stuck and needed advice, just to feel free to pop in and ask. Any insecurities usually disappear during the first working day, after which everybody cracks on. And to show that I respected his rank as a SNCO I always operated a one up, two down approach. Once the ice was broken, people just sort of got on.

Army...be the boss!