Are you religious?

[tattybadger]

Shame that this thread has died a death, so just a word to say ta to all.
(Hope the bits get better soon Tatty)

However as perhaps a tailword I came across this the other day and thought it worth quoting, especially as it seems to support what I hold to.

" The quintessence of religion is self-knowledge. "

Or self-delusion?

[Dwarf]

Shame that this thread has died a death, so just a word to say ta to all.
(Hope the bits get better soon Tatty)

However as perhaps a tailword I came across this the other day and thought it worth quoting, especially as it seems to support what I hold to.

" The quintessence of religion is self-knowledge. "

Or self-delusion?

Not if you link it to the rest of the quote.

Also how can knowing yourself be delusion, I would have thought it would be the opposite.

(- Hope the weekend was good. I found out that FIBUA does not mean Fighting in big underwear.)

[BoomShackerLacker]

100% atheist, as a man of scientific principals I'll believe in facts and put my faith in proof.

The idea of putting unfounded belief and blind faith into the mix to answer unexplainable questions insults me to the very core. There are no doubt issues that we do not posses the knowledge to explain or capability to understand yet as our primative senses have only just evolved out of a period where we were no more than apes.

In my opinion religion is a tool used for the waging of wars, unjustified killing in the name of an almighty and a mass method of control via brainwashing.

The worst are parents who "educate" their children to believe in a certain God, whatever one they happen to think is real. Inflicting their own mental illness and delivering something that is essentially a class A drug of control onto the poor kids who's minds close usually in fear of putting a foot wrong and angering their new imaginary friend.

Show me proof and I'll believe in it, until then I'll leave my mind open and my life free of a made up God.

You might benefit, although I have to express my doubts, from reading this thread a little more closely.

a. One of the key points about modern (ie, for about the past 80 years) scientific and mathematical thinking is that "proof" doesn't necessarily exist for things that are true.

b. Our current state of knowledge is imperfect, which requires us to make decisions based upon more than just logical analysis of commonly agreed facts, eg intuition or personal experience (people's mental experiences are not generally shareable - eg, it is difficult to convey the meaning of a colour picture to someone who was born blind).

c. Some of us deist types do not adhere to our religion based on "unfounded belief and blind faith".

d. Religion is indeed a tool for justification of political/social actions, such as war and negative behavioural control. However, it is also used to justify more positive behaviour, such as seeking peace or aiding people in need. Furthermore, even a brief perusal of history should show that lack of religion doesn't prevent people from finding ways of killing or controlling each other (BTW, if a ruler appeals to the people to kill "their" enemies as a service to a deity, then it's not actually "unjustified" killing - you might disagree with the justification but that's a different matter)

e. Parents will generally educate their children to follow their beliefs - why would you expect them to do anything different, whether they are agnositics, deists, supernaturalists or deranged atheists?

Rather excellent post, and worthy of an encore. Stands out in the sea of gnashing of teeth, to mix a metaphor.

I quite prefer the suggested latin root of the word religion, that is 'ligare', to bind or connect. That religion should really be about re-ligament, that by pondering the 'important, meaningful, and thinking about the spiritual things' we are more considerate.

Shame that these words and their meaning are hijacked and corrrupted.

[tattybadger]

Also how can knowing yourself be delusion, I would have thought it would be the opposite.

Beg to disagree there stumps - have met some very self-deluded blokes over the last 20 years. Blokes who thought that they were better/harder/brighter/smarter than they actually are.

[eodmatt]

Interesting thread this! I have worked with Gurkhas (Buddhist, Animist, Hindu etc), Africans (tribesmen with some very odd beliefs), Americans (dollar worship), Taiwanese (Mazu, Goddess of the sea; animist; strange effigy worship; golden frog worship etc), Mayan tribes people (still hankering after ritual killings) Vietnamese (Buddhist; strange monkey deity beliefs etc); Chinese (only the party exists, God is bollocks - but believe that the number 888 has mystical significance). I wont bore you with more. But it seems that that the human race of whatever hue or nationality has a deep seated urge to believe in something that will take away responsibility for their own actions (Insh'Allah) or to which they can ascribe blame or thanks. My personal view is that, if there is a God, he, she or it is prolly more interested in where the human race gets to in the end than the individuals that are part of it at any particular time or place. Fuck me theres a burning bush right outside my window. I must call HSE immediately as it's obviously a fire risk.

[Dwarf]

Also how can knowing yourself be delusion, I would have thought it would be the opposite.

Beg to disagree there stumps - have met some very self-deluded blokes over the last 20 years. Blokes who thought that they were better/harder/brighter/smarter than they actually are.

I think I see what you mean, Oh He who can look over the Post Office counter without stilts.
"I'm the hardest man in the bar" WHAP! - Shame about the chairleg, syndrome.

However surely these types do not truly know themselves, as if they did so then they would know that they are not as hard/bright/etc. as they appear. I would say that they have not yet achieved a great degree of self-knowledge, which does involve quite a great deal of "I was a dickhead there" admission, which they are unlikely to admit.
When you get past the clouding aspects of dogma, a real/true religion should help one come to terms with one's limitations and how to live a better life. The 'mystical' side would then also try to relate that to one's place/purpose in the universe.
It's interesting that in India there are still a large number of people who follow and preach that path, (a lot of charlatans as well). While in the West
that is the 'older' path before the church applied it's faith rules to everything. Still followed by some though.

[tattybadger]

Also how can knowing yourself be delusion, I would have thought it would be the opposite.

Beg to disagree there stumps - have met some very self-deluded blokes over the last 20 years. Blokes who thought that they were better/harder/brighter/smarter than they actually are.

I think I see what you mean, Oh He who can look over the Post Office counter without stilts.
"I'm the hardest man in the bar" WHAP! - Shame about the chairleg, syndrome.

However surely these types do not truly know themselves, as if they did so then they would know that they are not as hard/bright/etc. as they appear.

Fair point.

[Dwarf]

But it seems that that the human race of whatever hue or nationality has a deep seated urge to believe in something that will take away responsibility for their own actions (Insh'Allah) or to which they can ascribe blame or thanks.

Is that statement totally true? I think for a lot of people that is the easy way and you are right.
But at the core of most religion is the idea that one can only advance by taking responsibility for your actions and not palming it off into the Big G.
To my mind it is the difference between trying to understand, or simply following the forms as a type of celestial insurance.

[tattybadger]

But it seems that that the human race of whatever hue or nationality has a deep seated urge to believe in something that will take away responsibility for their own actions (Insh'Allah) or to which they can ascribe blame or thanks.

Is that statement totally true? I think for a lot of people that is the easy way and you are right.
But at the core of most religion is the idea that one can only advance by taking responsibility for your actions and not palming it off into the Big G.

Say 22 Hail Marys and you sin will be absolved - therefore no responsibility for what you did!!!

[oldcolt]

"What came first, the chicken or the egg?"

I always respond:

"I don't know, but it certainly wasn't the fcuking farmer!"

Edd

For the avoidance of doubt, using the theory of evolution, the Egg came first. Its 'parents' may have been 'chicken like' creatures but the first true chicken emerged from an egg created by two very chickeny (is that a word? it is now!) looking birds. Intelligent design would offer a similar solution but, the Bible would suggest that it was indeed the chickens who came first as eggs would have had a b@stard of a job rolling up the gangplank onto the Ark!!!!

One of lifes eternal questions answered... You heard it on Arrse first!!!!