Are you religious?

[Dwarf]

Dwarf - I take umbrage at your accusation of me making sweeping statements. My posts are succinct and clear - they are only sweeping in your eyes because there is a requirement for theists to think in a similar fashion and you assume that I aim my posts at them. No, they are aimed at the thought process rather than the owners of the thought process.

There is a gulf of difference between suggesting plenty of evidence for the absence of god as opposed to pointing out the lack of evidence for the presence of god and that is the gist of most of the posts that oppose theism on this thread.

Apologies for umbrage caused, I really meant that there are a number of statements on this thread that say there is evidence for this or that and then fail to say what that evidence is.

To follow up a point that you made earlier, and that has been made by several others I would like to posit a point and see what is said.

Setting aside the major religions and their view of what a God is, and the judeo-christian concept of God is what most here seem to have adopted, as I think that organized religions simply muddy the water for many people, while respecting those who have found a path to follow in them.
It could be said that throughout history spiritual men of different cultures have left signposts that can be followed to arrive at a personal knowledge of God. Remembering that the original christian belief was based on gnosis or personal experience/knowledge of God and that the Catholic Church ruthlessly exterminated those who followed this as it would have been against their political control of the religion. (Cathars or Albigensian crusade is a good example of this).
Then if personal gnosis is the way then only by following the route to achieve that gnosis can the existance of a Creator be proved or disproved.

Buddhism generally goes in this direction, and diverse spiritual belief-systems also. If one takes the fact that people in history have claimed to achieve an understanding at different levels, not by faith but by experience, then how can one immediately discard their experience as being non-valid?
A single example of say, the American Indian sun-dance, a tried shamanic test which allows individuals to achieve mystical experiences. Are they ALL hallucinating? This experience is mirrored in Celtic, Norse and African belief-systems to name but three. Plus the varying Mystery Schools of the classical world which claimed to do a similar thing but less physically arduously.

Interested to see the replies. In the A.M.

A brief answer today - I have a full intray this morning!!!

I think your argument postulates that because plenty of individuals claim to have experienced some form of religious experience that collective experience should not be discarded from the argument in support of the existence of deities (y)?

The trouble is that these experiences are all phenomena for which you and those individuals seek an explanation - the exisitence of deities is one explanation, another is hallucination and so on. in order for the explanation to hold credence in needs to be tested rigorously in order to validate it. As far as I am aware the hypothesis that seeks to use the existence of a deity to explain phenomena has never passed the rigorous testing required to prove it.

Science seeks to do this - religion does not.

I sympathise with your full In-tray, I am trying hard to avoid looking at mine while I type this out.

Basically , yes if there is a body of experience then should it be discarded is the drift. But how can science test this type of experience is my question, or how has it attempted to do so until now? Is it looking in the right places and asking the right questions?
I agree that religions do not attempt to do so while Science does, but I am not a fan of religions either. Also I am careful to make a difference between Spiritual and Religious.

Could we take a simple example of say deep breathing. This stills and relaxes the body inducing a calmer feeling and is easy to verify as most people can do it.
Take Yoga which has relaxed breathing as a central part of its disciplines which allows one to exercise better and also promotes a feeling of calmness and well-being as attested to by many people. This can be deepened into a meditative state which can produce a deeper feeling of calmness and relaxation while allowing the mind to concentrate on a particular theme, again attested to by many over the years.
Then some say that after years of practice they have achieved a ‘gnosis’ or higher spiritual experience, then here we have a body of collective experience.
However given that it is experiential and is not achieved in ten minutes I would be interested to know how Science professes to test this. Though I would have thought that Though I would have thought that having more than one person attest to it should give it a little credence not to be dismissed out of hand as some here seem to do.

Right, back to the In-Tray.

[tattybadger]

So you are saying that David Koresh is proof of the existence of god. Or getting off your face at rock concerts.

Plenty of people have religious experiences - although it tends to be culturally specific. Catholic loons see the 'Virgin', others spirits and others still UFO's - unfortunately these are not god given they are a chemical reaction in our brain to certain stimuli.

If this is prooof why don't you roll out the prayer mat 7 times a day? After all god revealed himself through Mohamed (in between the child abuse sessions) so it must be true.

.

A far better example would be Gautama Buddha who spent many years following an ascetic life, studying and meditating until he achieved enlightenment, or a spiritual oneness. Others have followed his path and also claimed to have had varying degrees of enlightenment or spiritual experiences. Are they all wrong or deluded?

Nothing to do with getting your face off at a concert after a cocktail of booze and drugs, that is simply physical stimuli operating.

Mohammed may have had truth revealed to him by God, but I would never accept it simply because another person says so, that would be a cop out. Why should I follow the rules of another without understanding? You are simply paying for a celestial insurance policy. Debate and practice may lead a person to the same conclusions and understanding as Mohammed, but simple acceptance of a word never.

What was that about the child abuse? Sounds like some catholic priests have become muslims.

Morning Stumpy - were you on the pish last night?

[Dwarf]

Mornin' Tatty, no I wasn't that's the problem. Saving myself for a true religious experience on saturday with the 6 Nations in an Irish pub down in Girona

[tattybadger]

Mornin' Tatty, no I wasn't that's the problem. Saving myself for a true religious experience on saturday with the 6 Nations in an Irish pub down in Girona

... when Father Penny's gang get a right royal religious shafting by messrs Sheridan and co? ................ I hope!!!!!

[Dwarf]

Mornin' Tatty, no I wasn't that's the problem. Saving myself for a true religious experience on saturday with the 6 Nations in an Irish pub down in Girona

... when Father Penny's gang get a right royal religious shafting by messrs Sheridan and co? ................ I hope!!!!!

Of course. Always England, trouble is the bar will be packed out with that Ryanair ground-crew lot from Girona airport..

Oy, who do you pray to when that last minute 40-yard winning kick needs to be made? Just out of interest.

[carlbcfc]

Mornin' Tatty, no I wasn't that's the problem. Saving myself for a true religious experience on saturday with the 6 Nations in an Irish pub down in Girona

... when Father Penny's gang get a right royal religious shafting by messrs Sheridan and co? ................ I hope!!!!!

Of course. Always England, trouble is the bar will be packed out with that Ryanair ground-crew lot from Girona airport..

Oy, who do you pray to when that last minute 40-yard winning kick needs to be made? Just out of interest.

So he answered our prayers in the world cup final with a last minute kick.... What about the abused children that are still waiting for some intervention??? ...what, is he busy watching sport?

[WhizzyShootingStar]

If God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and loving, would he really create a world, where innocent children were thrown alive and screaming into the gas ovens of Auschwitz for example? Surely this constitutes neglect at the vey least or suggests the existence of a mong deity who had probably botched up his attempts to create a fair few other universes before this one.

Free will, apparently.

[tattybadger]

Mornin' Tatty, no I wasn't that's the problem. Saving myself for a true religious experience on saturday with the 6 Nations in an Irish pub down in Girona

... when Father Penny's gang get a right royal religious shafting by messrs Sheridan and co? ................ I hope!!!!!

Of course. Always England, trouble is the bar will be packed out with that Ryanair ground-crew lot from Girona airport..

Oy, who do you pray to when that last minute 40-yard winning kick needs to be made? Just out of interest.

Whoever will listen!!!!!

[Themanwho]

I have no real problem with atheists or believers, right up to the point that the fcukers decide it's their bounden duty to ram their beliefs down my throat. I'm not referring to discussions like this, more the sort of propaganda seen on London buses ("There's probably no God" etc), hellfire and brimstone preachers - muslim and christian - ripping into the non-believers on TV/radio ,door knocking evangelists and Jehovah's bloody witnesses.

I reserve the right to believe in any sky pixie I want, after all religion can be (to misquote Heinlein) a comforting crutch for the less strong minded. What's wrong with that? Why should that smug cnut Dawkins want to tell everyone "You're wrong! You're wrong! God's not real!". He may well be right, but it doesn't stop him from being a smug cnut. I bet he was the sort of annoying six yr old kid who tells all his class mates (obviously having no friends) that Santa isn't real, just to fcuk it up for them.

[tattybadger]

I have no real problem with atheists or believers, right up to the point that the fcukers decide it's their bounden duty to ram their beliefs down my throat. I'm not referring to discussions like this, more the sort of propaganda seen on London buses ("There's probably no God" etc), hellfire and brimstone preachers - muslim and christian - ripping into the non-believers on TV/radio ,door knocking evangelists and Jehovah's bloody witnesses.

I reserve the right to believe in any sky pixie I want, after all religion can be (to misquote Heinlein) a comforting crutch for the less strong minded. What's wrong with that? Why should that smug cnut Dawkins want to tell everyone "You're wrong! You're wrong! God's not real!". He may well be right, but it doesn't stop him from being a smug cnut. I bet he was the sort of annoying six yr old kid who tells all his class mates (obviously having no friends) that Santa isn't real, just to fcuk it up for them.

FFS don't accept a job offer in Saudi then - it would drive you bannanas. I had shelves full of proselytizing mauals from long-bearded zealots after two years there.