Are you religious?

[GUNGA]

"As I look back over my life with the spiritual perspective I now have, I am increasingly impressed by the realization that those watershed events that together form the trajectory of my life and at the time I considered to be "luck" or random chance, were actually all part of an intelligent and providential plan for me as an individual. "

I agree absolutely with this, it is true to my own experience too. If this is so what is the purpose of infant lives ended through starvation, disease and even torture ? I don't believe that these are without point either. As we both know it is very easy for those who have not seen or had no suffering in their lives to have a comfortable religion. Religion for me is not comfortable, as I suspect it isn't for you either. There are more questions raised by the religious life than one of atheism. However, I have an impulsion to believe. I was depressed by a close friend's 'humanist' funeral just before Christmas - a life without hope is a terrible one!

[Dwarf]

Jumpinjarhead, I would never deny the validity of religious experience. I just don't think that it can be contained within one dogma or creed. Christians themselves are split into many diverse groups who each claim the 'key' to salvation. Also, for me, there is the insuperable issue of geography. What sort of petty minded God would condemn people who happen to be born in India because they're not Christians ? My own faith gives me a structure for my religious experience and, in a sense, I am a Christian but I am not going to be restricted by church dogma. In that way I am antipathetic to all forms of conventional fundamentalist belief. I have said elsewhere that there is far too much evidence in the form of NDE's and other 'supernatural' events to dismiss it all as fiction and invention. We don't live in a world where a simple, mechanistic, view of the universe is viable anymore. Religion for me has to be experiential and exploratory.

That is consistent with my experience in terms of your concerns and questions. As I said in a previous post, those aspects of the history and experience of the Christian faith that are negative (denominationalism, the excesses of the middle age Catholic church, inquisitions, pogroms etc.) are wholly attributable to the imperfection of humans in representing that faith, whether honestly or maliciously. There are myriad examples of this in the Bible that I believe are included to remind us of this tendency that is a part of our fallen human nature. With respect to the question of God's provision for people who through no fault of their own have not been acquainted with the Gospel per se, I found the first chapter of the book of Romans of great help.

As I look back over my life with the spiritual perspective I now have, I am increasingly impressed by the realization that those watershed events that together form the trajectory of my life and at the time I considered to be "luck" or random chance, were actually all part of an intelligent and providential plan for me as an individual.

Of particular value is the relief I now have for "survivor's guilt" in that I was burdened for a number of years with a profound sense of loss and responsibility for those wonderful Marines that were killed or injured under my leadership.

I would agree with the imperfection point, as none of you are perfect. However I think that a problem about quoting the Bible as support for arguments is that both sides must agree that it is authoratative. On this thread that is not the case, Tatty Buggerall and others simply will not agree that it is God's word and the argument gets left standing on one leg.
In my case as a believer in a Creator but pagan, and there are others on this thread who go on those lines, is that while I see the Bible and other 'Holy Books' as a guide and support for the particular religion, and therefore valid for them, I do not see any of them as being 'The Word'.
I see them as being interpretations of the divine as seen by certain writers, and not divinely guided. In the case of the Bible it has been edited so much for political and nefarious reasons that the original message has been affected to a fair extent. Therefore by claiming (as some do) that it is authorative now but that the changes were by divine giudance one is saying in effect that Jesus got it wrong and needed correcting, which then undermines the whole religious structure.

I have had people tell me that the Koran, Old Testament, and Bible are the word of God, who do I believe?
As stated there are as many paths to The Absolute as there are souls, and with such a variety in people in places and times I cannot see that only one path is viable.

As to your last paragraphs I would support you in saying that you have found that you are part of an individual and providential plan, as I believe that we all have one and that by becoming aware of this is a great guide in life. However that may be expressed in various ways, I showed a Christian friend who is very important to me a small church in my town and the experience we shared was extremely profound. Yet I am beginning to work with her daughter with the Germanic-Runic system and are also experiencing an awareness of spiritual matters within a different framework that makes sense for the both of us.

May your own path bring you light.

[tattybadger]

With respect to the question of God's provision for people who through no fault of their own have not been acquainted with the Gospel per se, I found the first chapter of the book of Romans of great help.

In what way was it a help?

[GUNGA]

With respect to the question of God's provision for people who through no fault of their own have not been acquainted with the Gospel per se, I found the first chapter of the book of Romans of great help.

In what way was it a help?

It says God will judge them according to their hearts...

[GUNGA]

I would agree with the imperfection point, as none of you are perfect.Love the implication here dwarf :D

[StickyEnd]

I agree absolutely with this, it is true to my own experience too. If this is so what is the purpose of infant lives ended through starvation, disease and even torture ? I don't believe that these are without point either. As we both know it is very easy for those who have not seen or had no suffering in their lives to have a comfortable religion. Religion for me is not comfortable, as I suspect it isn't for you either. There are more questions raised by the religious life than one of atheism. However, I have an impulsion to believe. I was depressed by a close friend's 'humanist' funeral just before Christmas - a life without hope is a terrible one!

What do you mean by that? There is no need to believe in God/s to have hope.

[jumpinjarhead]

Jumpinjarhead, I would never deny the validity of religious experience. I just don't think that it can be contained within one dogma or creed. Christians themselves are split into many diverse groups who each claim the 'key' to salvation. Also, for me, there is the insuperable issue of geography. What sort of petty minded God would condemn people who happen to be born in India because they're not Christians ? My own faith gives me a structure for my religious experience and, in a sense, I am a Christian but I am not going to be restricted by church dogma. In that way I am antipathetic to all forms of conventional fundamentalist belief. I have said elsewhere that there is far too much evidence in the form of NDE's and other 'supernatural' events to dismiss it all as fiction and invention. We don't live in a world where a simple, mechanistic, view of the universe is viable anymore. Religion for me has to be experiential and exploratory.

That is consistent with my experience in terms of your concerns and questions. As I said in a previous post, those aspects of the history and experience of the Christian faith that are negative (denominationalism, the excesses of the middle age Catholic church, inquisitions, pogroms etc.) are wholly attributable to the imperfection of humans in representing that faith, whether honestly or maliciously. There are myriad examples of this in the Bible that I believe are included to remind us of this tendency that is a part of our fallen human nature. With respect to the question of God's provision for people who through no fault of their own have not been acquainted with the Gospel per se, I found the first chapter of the book of Romans of great help.

As I look back over my life with the spiritual perspective I now have, I am increasingly impressed by the realization that those watershed events that together form the trajectory of my life and at the time I considered to be "luck" or random chance, were actually all part of an intelligent and providential plan for me as an individual.

Of particular value is the relief I now have for "survivor's guilt" in that I was burdened for a number of years with a profound sense of loss and responsibility for those wonderful Marines that were killed or injured under my leadership.

I would agree with the imperfection point, as none of you are perfect. However I think that a problem about quoting the Bible as support for arguments is that both sides must agree that it is authoratative. On this thread that is not the case, Tatty Buggerall and others simply will not agree that it is God's word and the argument gets left standing on one leg.
In my case as a believer in a Creator but pagan, and there are others on this thread who go on those lines, is that while I see the Bible and other 'Holy Books' as a guide and support for the particular religion, and therefore valid for them, I do not see any of them as being 'The Word'.
I see them as being interpretations of the divine as seen by certain writers, and not divinely guided. In the case of the Bible it has been edited so much for political and nefarious reasons that the original message has been affected to a fair extent. Therefore by claiming (as some do) that it is authorative now but that the changes were by divine giudance one is saying in effect that Jesus got it wrong and needed correcting, which then undermines the whole religious structure.

I have had people tell me that the Koran, Old Testament, and Bible are the word of God, who do I believe?
As stated there are as many paths to The Absolute as there are souls, and with such a variety in people in places and times I cannot see that only one path is viable.

As to your last paragraphs I would support you in saying that you have found that you are part of an individual and providential plan, as I believe that we all have one and that by becoming aware of this is a great guide in life. However that may be expressed in various ways, I showed a Christian friend who is very important to me a small church in my town and the experience we shared was extremely profound. Yet I am beginning to work with her daughter with the Germanic-Runic system and are also experiencing an awareness of spiritual matters within a different framework that makes sense for the both of us.

May your own path bring you light.

I take your point about the Bible. When I refer to it for authority, I do so in the context of my own experience. I well remember how I perceived it before my own spiritual eyes were opened. Nevertheless, I can but only relate these matters from my own experience and perspective and for me the Bible is authoritative. I would not presume to expect the same perspective of others unless they have been similarly persuaded spiritually to regard it likewise. While I can agree that many texts regarded as holy by various world religions and belief systems may include aspects that are similar to or consistent with various Biblical precepts, my own belief through my faith is that the Bible is the one authority since it is inspired by the one God.

[Dwarf]

I agree absolutely with this, it is true to my own experience too. If this is so what is the purpose of infant lives ended through starvation, disease and even torture ? I don't believe that these are without point either. As we both know it is very easy for those who have not seen or had no suffering in their lives to have a comfortable religion. Religion for me is not comfortable, as I suspect it isn't for you either. There are more questions raised by the religious life than one of atheism. However, I have an impulsion to believe. I was depressed by a close friend's 'humanist' funeral just before Christmas - a life without hope is a terrible one!

What do you mean by that? There is no need to believe in God/s to have hope.

Mmmmm. But hope in what? I think this would need definition.
What do people actually hope in?
Do they hope in an afterlife so that they will have continuation?
Do they hope that what they are doing is on the right path so they will have justification?
Do they hope in a caring deity who will comfort them after all is done?

Obviously people hope for different things, which is why I find it a hugely vague term.

Also I find that the word hope tends to deny what people pupport to believe in. At my close friends funeral it struck me once again how the Church is hugely lacking in preparing people for the step that will come to us all. Death has been turned into a huge negative, a huge incognito, a terrible thing. Yet it was not always so, it used to be a step into the next phase of existence. Now whether you believe that this is right or wrong, at least the beliefs of our ancestors helped us on this step.
To talk as the Vicar did about hope is to my eyes, a denial of what he believes. Doesn't he KNOW? Isn't he convinced? So why hope?

To talk of mercy also implies judgement, which is something I don't go along with. We all want the baddie to suffer and pay, but to say that we all have to go before a court seems to allow that vision to be manipulated into the 'follow my path or the judgement will be negative' visions, which happens far too often.

This to me is a failing of Christianity and other religions, whereas other paths that talk of a continuation as a matter of course, and a learning process through Wyrd/Karma rebirth make more sense. Hope does not come into the equation.

[tattybadger]

With respect to the question of God's provision for people who through no fault of their own have not been acquainted with the Gospel per se, I found the first chapter of the book of Romans of great help.

In what way was it a help?

It says God will judge them according to their hearts...

Oh - I see now!!!!!!!!!!

How do they know that then?

[GUNGA]

OK, I believe that one day i will be re-united with all those I love whether they are her or 'stand upon another shore'. I feel sorry for those who have no hope, it is in fact to be a heathen. For the religious their true home is not here but the life beyond. This is incomprehensible to those who are not of a religious mind. I mentioned Freud earlier who said that religion was a form of collective OCD: I see his point but I don't beleive it.