ARmy Rumour SErvice

Originally Posted by ASICarrot

Seaweed, my fave why sealion was going to fail aspect was the fact that destroyers steaming past at flank speed would sink barges with their wake. Even after the channel fleet had expended its entire stock of shells and mg rounds they could still ruin the invasion simply by having a jolly.

I thought the best bit was the cunning plan to stack all the lifejackets from the 1st wave on the beach to be shipped back to France to be issued to the 2nd wave.

What's that? the pesky British are shooting at you and won't let the stores wallahs carry out an orderly collection and RTD?

Originally Posted by ASICarrot

3. Having read up on the 1970s wargames it seems to have prevented the usage of the Channel Fleet which was more than capable of wrecking the flotilla days in advance of the home fleet arrival.

I'd love to know what you've been reading because the Channel Fleet was incorporated into the Home Fleet at the end of WWI.

As you correctly surmise, it's likely that enough of the RAF would have remained to maintain cover over the fleet during an invasion of England. A good joint effort, when you count the army's invaluable contribution of the Women's Auxiliary Balloon Corps.

Originally Posted by crabtastic

My point is that things could have gone much worse without the 4,822 sorties (Churchill's count) flown by the RAF to molest the Luftwaffe. I'd be interested to hear of any sources you might have that states that Ju-87 crews couldn't hit a destroyer moving at 25Kts when they proved quite adept at hitting land vehicles.

How many trucks were fitted with:

8 x 4.7 inch QF Mark XII (L/45) , twin mount
4 x QF 2 pdr, quad mount
8 x Vickers .50 machine gun, quad mount

To shoot back at you and rather try and spoil your aim while zigzagging furiously at 35kts?

crab... the home fleet elements stationed in the channel then which was from memory one CL and 17 fast destroyers. Oh plus several hundred RN assets capable of carrying or carrying weapons. The war games seemed to predict a cleared channel which would have taken a concerted LW assault on channel ports which were well covered by AD.... which would prevent LW attacks on army staging areas and the RAF. Which means the Germans would have been slaughtered upon landing let alone the few days after it would take the home fleet to break in.

Originally Posted by Semper_Flexibilis

How many trucks were fitted with:

8 x 4.7 inch QF Mark XII (L/45) , twin mount
4 x QF 2 pdr, quad mount
8 x Vickers .50 machine gun, quad mount

To shoot back at you and rather try and spoil your aim while zigzagging furiously at 35kts?

So tell me, how come the entire force only averaged about 5 kills a day?

Crabtastic:

The Luftwaffe presented a different air threat to that which cost the RN POW and Repulse. The Germans' principal means of air attack against ships were JU87 dive bombers, and medium sized level bombers.

Take Op PEDESTAL (one of the Malta convoys) as an example of the ability of Axis air forces. In 6 days' fighting the Allies lost:

-1 aircraft carrier sunk, (EAGLE, to U73)
-2 light cruisers sunk, (Manchester, scuttled after being torpedoed by E boats, CAIRO torpedoes by an Italian submarine)
-1 destroyer sunk, (FORESIGHT, torpedoed by an Italian aircraft)
-1 aircraft carrier damaged,(INDOMITABLE)
-2 light cruisers damaged (KENYA and NIGERIA - both torpedoed by submarines)

The Axis powers deployed 784 aircraft against the convoy, and achieved the sinking of one destroyer. The air threat from Italian and German air forces in the early part of WW2 against the RN was very much less than that presented by the Imperial Japanese Navy.

What was the Home Fleet doing in 1940? Protecting the Atlantic convoys, setting up Force H to replace French naval power in the Western Med after their capitulation, picking pongoes up off the beaches. Quite busy, really.

Anyway, enough of this historical crab baiting. On to more modern questions.

1) How much has the RAF brought to the support of UK ops a) since 1945 b) since 1980?

2) How many aircraft have RAF pilots in RAF aircraft shot down since 1948? No, wait, we know this one.

3) How does the RAF justify such a large logistical tail for such a relatively small effect on ops? It's a bigger service than the RN, but doesn't have the global reach.

Obviously this is all spectacularly immature, unfair and irrelevant to the SDSR process. But it is fun.

Originally Posted by Semper_Flexibilis

No, as was pointed out on the radio

UK aircraft have shot down 26 enemy aircraft since WWII – 25 of them were shot down by Royal Navy fighters.

QED: Transfer all fighters to the Fleet Air Arm, the original and still clearly the best fighter force.

I would be interested to know where and when the 1 remaining plane was shot down. I'd be willing to bet it was the Jaguar shot down by the RAF Phantom over Germany!!

Originally Posted by ASICarrot

crab... the home fleet elements stationed in the channel then which was from memory one CL and 17 fast destroyers. Oh plus several hundred RN assets capable of carrying or carrying weapons. The war games seemed to predict a cleared channel which would have taken a concerted LW assault on channel ports which were well covered by AD.... which would prevent LW attacks on army staging areas and the RAF. Which means the Germans would have been slaughtered upon landing let alone the few days after it would take the home fleet to break in.

And don't forget, the LW had no ability to attack ships at night, the Channel would have been a Destroyers playground after dark as they swanned about slaughtering the landing barges at leisure… then home before daylight for tea and stickies.