Thread: All arms EOD/ IEDD

Originally Posted by stinker

Due to my IT illteracy, can anyone please tell me the DIN number?

^ this please guys!!!!

Originally Posted by Herrumph

As far as DRLC and PANTO are concerned - any old chopper will do provided it doesn't detract anyone from the Corps/Core business of checking tyre pressures and keeping those wheels rolling

Quite right too! The day you can stick 1500 tons worth of CSups on the back of an EOD Mastiff you can carry on

Originally Posted by Herrumph

For what it is worth, we have always been short of HT Operators because the pass rate is fairly constant and low over the years. It is a difficult course and has always been so - quite rightly.

When we battled with the problem 10 years ago we found the pass rate was actually similar to other "difficult" courses - SF, SD and Para (if you included pre-para selection).

This is not a new challenge but for too long we decided that there was no need to address the problem because HT Operators would not be needed once NI was "resolved". The argument was as rediculous as abandoning all armour training or air combat today on the basis that we won't use them in Afghanistan.

Furthermore, we did not reward those who got the highest EOD Qualification nor did we give an (dis)incentive to those who kept failing. We have also carved up the AT(O) trade into IPTs, Agencies and the like with no central control which allows too many to shirk responsibility (not just by actually deploying - many do so, but there is no will to train and prepare to support Ops that are seen as being someone else's responsibility).

The US EOD Course is actually very good and is all arms/services. It is a year long and when I visited it, still didn't get to anything like the HT IEDD level - I am sure that has changed but will have meant more training. Perhaps the time has now come for an EOD Trade and possibly Corps/Regiment - perhaps along lines of APTC or SASC. If that is the way ahead there are two issues need to be resolved - firstly the selection and training must be right, far too often we want to do things cheaply and quickly. The second issue is how do you get the right input to doctrine and policy - it cannot be done with an LE hierarchy (sorry exWOs) and if you want Regular DE Officers you need a career structure.

Could not agree more...

This whole sorry affair comes down to gross mismanagement by the Corps on both on the Ammo AND the IEDD side. This ultimately goes back to the reign of the "Gang of Four" who were allowed to take the trade down an exclusive and ultimately self destructive path years ago (and set themselved up with "nice little earners" afterwards as a result...)

The absence of any competant staffing work by both RAOC and RLC to develop sustainable operational, training or manpower management doctrines is inexcusable. The whole CILSA/DLSA/PATO/"last one out switch off the lights" saga would be a huge joke if the consequences were not so serious. There is a cost to be had by sending LE bomb techs into battle in the MoD against a staff college trained enemy (with no back up..!)

Not only are we in dire straights with the state of the EOD/IEDD capability, let me also remind you that our ability to conduct conventional ammo tech support ain't that rosy either...

On a day when we are happy to bask in the reflected glory of our wholly deserving operators, let us not forget that too often they have not had the support from within that they deserve...

Originally Posted by CAARPS

Please someone who is in the know confirm that the kickback against this scheme is because of genuine safety issues and has nothing to do with preciousness of capbadges.

I can confirm that it is all down to safety.

We have lost some HT Operators in the field after completing a non-compromised course.

The instructors ask themselves one question when deciding on pass or fail a student….Is he safe / will he kill himself or others?

Now compare that with the statement that there will be so many EOD teams in HERRICK, and there is no alternative.

Because of this promise, under-qualified and inexperienced operators will be sent to fill HT posts.

This will result in an increase of dead operators and probably the loss of team members and other troops

The comparison to a helicopter pilot has one big flaw:

You don’t start your pilot training already trained as a pilot! IEDD training is an extension of the principles taught in EOD.

At present to start the IEDD training all participants are already Ammunition Technicians, BDO Combat Engineers, Navy Clearance Divers or RAF Armourers.

Edited to remove team details

OPSEC. Lets not talk team numbers.

I'll ask again to get this to the front page.

DIN / DIB number so I can read what the arguement is about on Armynet if the document is available.

Please forgive my impatience.

Stinker, sorry cant help on the DIN as I'm still in denial.

Herrumph, thank you for the comment, not sure who you are though. Bugger Threat Assessment way out.

Blu, you would like to think that they wont send you to HERRICK but I know differently.

Can I just point out and I'll stand by to be sacked on this one but hey ho I'm posted anyway......

The Threat Assessment part is the bit that is going to save your sorry misguided arses and we aint teaching that here. Although we may have to send people down there to do that because to let the RE teach it is wrong on so many levels and no that's not a capbadge dig. BDO= get down the road and get rid after ASH has told me what to do. AT(O)= easy tiger where you going what else could be down the road and what happens if I go(thats the bit that saves your life!!!!!)

The IED phase is the old JS course, UK Mainland only Animal rights schoolboys that sort of thing. The only reason the course is longer is because more people will be on it and we/they cant assess that many in the same time as before. WE HAVE NOT BEEN ASKED TO CHANGE THE COURSE IN ANY WAY!

And as for pass rates, (I wasn't there so dont quote me but a couple of people were and have let me know) but the quote went something like we HAVE to have an 85% pass rate.

The pass rate on the old JS is historically 60% for RLC with an ammo background and 30% for RE with a BDO background. And at a brief the other day to 2 VERY high ranking officers one of whom may sound like you'd give him away as your last sweet was told that these guys COULD deploy on HERRICK.

Mental, the whole thing.

I fully aggree that something needs to be done but this isn't it, I'm not sure what the answer is but I'm working on it.

And if you're only coming for the 50k then thats not enough for your family when you've dissapeared in a molten ball of magma. And they'll want 2 HT tours out of you.

And whoever said £20 a when fully trained!!! Over my cold decaying body. Level 3 isn't up for grabs by anyone. So none of you will get that level (well not this week anyway)

Love and hugs as always and bulling my boots again for the bollocking that's bound to follow this.


TWU

TWU - too true.....!!!

You can't get a bollocking for telling the truth.

Originally Posted by Bomb_Doctor

TWU - too true.....!!!

You can't get a bollocking for telling the truth.

You did - repeatedly so I was told!

TWU - your driving was shoite but I thought your threat assessment was better!

Could it be that forty years of 'we are too secret for you to know what we are up to' has actually done more harm than any rival Corps ever could? Could it be that favouring EOD God status over the ability to staff a case through MoD has allowed this to take place? I do not know the answer to those questions, but somewhere in the past, allowing self interested LE ATs to set EOD policy has probably done some harm - and put off some hugley talented DE officers who chose to go and do rubber wheels stuff rather than put up with 'well you would think that, you have not been a BBK operator' every time change was proposed.

The plan is to allow SNCO and above from other arms to attend a selection course and then the def EOD ops course. If successful tour on MACP prior to training for HT. This should be an opportunity to demonstrate the uber quality of AT/ ato compared to all other players. In that regard, ato/ AT should have little to fear - if the hypothesis is correct. If not, perhaps we have been doing some things wrong? As for inspectorate duties et al, contractors, withdrawal of stock, use of non deployable ATs for this role are all being considered - but it means taking EOD Gods (retired) and putting them back in unit stores - and lets be honest, the ATs never REALLY wanted to do that any way!

The bottom line is we cannot do it using just ATs/atos any more. The US army does a similar system (longer training admittedly) as do other nations. We have the best solution in using ammo techs, but there will not be enough SNCO AT for some time - hence the current plan. The ato course has increased capacity markedly, all 'old boys' are being dragged back in and some of the grey beards are redoing HT training - at cost to them and the Army. But it is not enough.

Originally Posted by thiswayup

The Threat Assessment part is the bit that is going to save your sorry misguided arses and we aint teaching that here. Although we may have to send people down there to do that because to let the RE teach it is wrong on so many levels and no that's not a capbadge dig. BDO= get down the road and get rid after ASH has told me what to do. AT(O)= easy tiger where you going what else could be down the road and what happens if I go(thats the bit that saves your life!!!!!)
TWU

Of course as you've done the 0801 you are very qualified to fully understand the BDO's thought process.

Don't believe the hype....although i personally think that RESA would be a better start state than BDO for IEDD!

Oh and threat assessment lessons have now been lifted directly from JSIEDD, but of course the 0801 is designed for non permissive theatres of operation, not a modified firework thrown into a druggies house in Bristol.

Originally Posted by Herrumph

You did - repeatedly so I was told!

Yeah, OK..... fair one That resembles my career LMAO

Originally Posted by Old_banger

......the BDO's thought process....

There is such a thing?

I thought it was cordon the biggest area you can physically get away with (citing some out of date pamphlet) to piss as many people off as possible. Then big it up in front of the cameras while the rest of the team work out what to do, then waltz down to the bomb (aka rusty gas cylinder), pack it with far too much PE4 and then proceed to frag the surrounding area (and locals) with bits of gas cylinder.

In the mean time, local newspaper Editors have been overwhelmed with unsolicited full colour photos of the BDO and a full Ops debrief of how the RE just saved the local community from a fate worse than a fate worse than death.....

THREAT ASSESSMENT!!!!!!!!! you can't teach it in a 40 minute lesson!!!! (never mind 6 weeks)

Brilliant.

Waiting for the first PARA applicant to pass just so he can go down in history as the first ATO to straddle the device like Slim Pickens in 'Dr. Strangelove' before his first experience as a bright spark.

Wahhhhh hoooooooo!