ARmy Rumour SErvice

**brave-coward** · 07-09-2012, 17:30

Originally Posted by AnotherBerliner

I've often heard the 'ealth 'n safety story but am pretty certain it was because of the limits imposed by the treaty governing conventional forces in Central Europe. A bit similar, in fact, to the Czechs removing 73mm turrets from their BMPs and replacing them with OT64 turrets.

My recollection of CFE is that there is only a restriction on vehicles with guns of 100mm calibre or more. Also the UK has (certainly in recent years) been so far below the maximum number of "tanks" permitted by CFE that I find it hard to believe, even back in the 90s, that we were anywhere close to our maximum permitted numbers.

**Trax2go** · 07-09-2012, 18:07

My memory is hazy so forgive me. I recall that ATDU had done toxicity trials, when I was in LSOR1 doing the Chieftain upgrade programme, and CVR(T) was binned.

The 76mm was a low velocity gun with no fume extractor so would always have toxicity issues and given loss of Crown Immunity and Health & Safety there was not appetite to keep it going. Also I seem to recall that the ammunition was none too effective against its given targets. Limited range, no power traverse and fire control system all indicated obselesence with little chance of a Life Extension Programme. There was some passing talk of fitting the Cockerel 90mm that the Belgians were using but it never got past idle chat as the Equipment Programme was overheated and CVR(T) was due to be replaced by TRACER - ha ha! It's 20 years on and we have still not seen it or FRES Scout.

Some CVR(T) were sold off, some converted using old Fox turrets to a Scimitar like spec and some shipped to BATUS and converted to OPFOR vehicles.

**CrashTestDummy** · 07-09-2012, 18:23

Originally Posted by Trax2go

My memory is hazy so forgive me. I recall that ATDU had done toxicity trials, when I was in LSOR1 doing the Chieftain upgrade programme, and CVR(T) was binned.

The 76mm was a low velocity gun with no fume extractor so would always have toxicity issues and given loss of Crown Immunity and Health & Safety there was not appetite to keep it going. Also I seem to recall that the ammunition was none too effective against its given targets. Limited range, no power traverse and fire control system all indicated obselesence with little chance of a Life Extension Programme. There was some passing talk of fitting the Cockerel 90mm that the Belgians were using but it never got past idle chat as the Equipment Programme was overheated and CVR(T) was due to be replaced by TRACER - ha ha! It's 20 years on and we have still not seen it or FRES Scout.

Some CVR(T) were sold off, some converted using old Fox turrets to a Scimitar like spec and some shipped to BATUS and converted to OPFOR vehicles.

We had a Cockerel 90mm fitted CVR(T) wile I was at ATDU, '81/'82. It went on a sales tour to the Gulf, too. A pretty impressive fire display it gave.

**Peeler** · 07-09-2012, 18:35

[QUOTE=RichardInDorset;4605489]

I have the following from Bovington:

It started life at Lugershall in 1973
3/1/74 14/20 Hussars
28/4/76 1st Royal Tank Regiment
30/7/77 Queens Dragoon Guards
17/6/80 9/12 Lancers

17/11/81 Conversion from 0860.7400 to 0860.7450

5/3/82 ODA (special forces detachment alpha)
2/11/82 2 ADS (???)
2/10/82 16/5 Lancers

9/11/82 conversion from 0860.7450 to 0860.8450

21/11/86 13/18 Hussars[QOUTE]

ODA is probably Ordnance Depot Antwerp. The 9/12 L who last had it were in FRG during that period. If I had to venture a guess the conversion was done at 37 Rhine Workshop, REME. It then was being stored at Antwerp prior to being sent back to the UK.
I believe 16/5 L were the RAC Centre Regt at Bovington in '82 with a Sqn assigned to AMF (L) (I would have to double check their history) so ADS could be Armd Del Sqn. ( By 1989 the Armd Del Regt for BAOR was found by the Training Regt at Catterick)

Hope this helps

**aghart** · 07-09-2012, 19:05

Having had feedback from former 1 RTR colleagues, a bit more info. 1 RTR "DID" have some 04 FD Scorpion's in Herford (ok so I was wrong!) and B Sqn 1 RTR became a close recce sqn in late 1977 swapping their Scorpion's for Scimitars. So the change to QDG looks to be genuine. No one yet has said they crewed said Scorpion but it's early days yet.

**aghart** · 07-09-2012, 19:10

I believe 16/5 L were the RAC Centre Regt at Bovington in '82 with a Sqn assigned to AMF (L) (I would have to double check their history) so ADS could be Armd Del Sqn. ( By 1989 the Armd Del Regt for BAOR was found by the Training Regt at Catterick)

Hope this helps[/QUOTE]

Correct, 16/5L were RAC Centre regt 11/80 - 11/82 with a detached sqn at Tidworth with AMF

**CrashTestDummy** · 07-09-2012, 19:19

Originally Posted by aghart

I believe 16/5 L were the RAC Centre Regt at Bovington in '82 with a Sqn assigned to AMF (L) (I would have to double check their history) so ADS could be Armd Del Sqn. ( By 1989 the Armd Del Regt for BAOR was found by the Training Regt at Catterick)

Hope this helps

Correct, 16/5L were RAC Centre regt 11/80 - 11/82 with a detached sqn at Tidworth with AMF[/QUOTE]

Yep, they took over from the Boneheads and 1RTR took over from them.

**Peeler** · 07-09-2012, 19:37

I just looked over the original post again. It seems that the vehicle came to 16/5 L in November but in October was with "2 ADS". Could "2 ADS" be Vehicle Sub-Depot (A Vehicles) Lugershall ? (especially if the writing is small ?)

**ex_donkey_man** · 09-09-2012, 11:16

I think there was a problem was the toxic fumes for the 76mm. Quite a few guys in the 90's in HCR had used Scorpion's and were told that if you went to one gun camp as a crew member and went sick once with a bad chest in your career, there was an automatic payout of £3,000. How true this is I don't know.

I know that for the CVR(T) usage in the FI in 82, (9 vehicles went, 2 troops of 2 Scimitar & 2 Scorpion & 1 Samson) they were mainly used for ferrying injured Para's down from Wireless Ridge and then carrying more ammo back up. My SQMC never said if they did actually use them for fire support. Maybe shot of a few rounds, but seemed more of an infantry battle.