Originally Posted by galloglaigh

Heh gallowglass what is your problem with me being Galloglaigh, your legal patent or something? did you get your name from the Ruth Rendell book ?? Galloglass were defenders of nobility not detractors ( for a price of course).

If I recall correctly,The Gall-Oglaich were a seasonal export from Innse-na-Gall or The(Outer)Hebrides to Ireland

Gallowglasses (also "Galloglass") were a mercenary warrior elite among Gaelic-Norse clans that resided in the north west Scottish Highlands and Western Isles of Scotland from the mid 13th century to the end of the 16th century. They were an example of the few changes in warfare among Scottish and Irish Gaels before the advent of gunpowder, and they were commonly hired by Irish lords during the campaigning season. As Scots they were descended from the Irish, but they had intermarried with the Norse who settled the islands and coastal areas of Scotland in the 10th century. For this reason, the Irish called them Gall Gaeil or foreign Gaels. Their soldiers were known as Gallóglaigh, meaning "Foreign soldiers". (Óglach is orginally derived from oac, Old Irish for "youths").

The first record of Hebridean mercenaries coming to serve under the Irish was in 1259, when Prince Aed O'Connor of Connaught received a dowry of 160 Scottish warriors from the daughter of the King of the Hebrides. They were organised into groups known as a "Corrughadh", which consisted of about 100 men. In return for military service, gallowglass contingents were given land and settled in Irish lordships, where they were entitled to receive supplies from the local population. By 1512, there were reported to be fifty nine groups throughout the country under the control of the Irish nobility. Though initially they were mercenaries, over time they settled and their ranks became filled with native Irish men. They were noted for wielding the two handed axe (a custom noted by Geraldus Cambrensis to have derived from their Norse heritage) and broadsword or claymore ("claÃ*omh mór"). For armour, the gallowglass wore chain mail shirts over padded jackets and iron helmets on the head; he was usually accompanied by two boys, one of whom carried his javelins or throwing spears while the other carried his provisions.

The importation of gallowglass into Ireland was a major factor in containing the Anglo-Norman invasion of the twelfth century, as their ranks stiffened the resistance of the Irish lordships. Throughout the Middle Ages in Ireland, gallowglass troops were maintained by Galeic Irish and Hiberno-Norman lords alike. Even the English Lord Deputy of Ireland usually kept a company of them in his service. (See Also: Norman Ireland)

The 16th century in Ireland saw an escalation in military conflict, caused by the Tudor re-conquest of Ireland. Gallowglass fighters were joined by native Irish mercenaries called buanadha (literally "quartered men") and by newer Scottish mercenaries known as "redshanks". The flow of mercenaries into Ireland was such a threat to English occupation that Queen Elizabeth I took steps against them in 1571 - around 700 of them being executed after the first of the Desmond Rebellions. In spite of the increased use of firearms in Irish warfare, gallowglass remained an important part of Hugh O'Neill's forces in the Nine Years War (Ireland). After the combined Irish defeat at the Battle of Kinsale in 1601, recruitment of gallowglass waned, although Scottish Highland mercenaries continued to come to Ireland until the 1640s (notably Alasdair MacColla).

Though the Gallowglass ceased as a military unit, their families lived on to this day. The most well known include:

MacSúibhne (MacSweeney)
MacDomhnaill (MacDonnell)
MacSÃ*othaigh (MacSheehy)
MacDubhgaill (MacDougall)
MacCaba (MacCabe)
MacRuari (MacRory)

Originally Posted by galloglaigh

You've set the tone and style of the discussions in your rant so let us dance to your tune, but get the words right this time.
The Gay McCarthy and his deceased boyfriend obviously get up you nose as well as your ARRSE. :P

The "Gay MacCarthy and his deceased boyfriend" 'get up my nose' as you put it because they were crooks, and have done untold damage to the question of the study and status of Gaelic titles in Ireland, so much so that all courtesy recognition of such titles was withdrawn by the Office of the Chief Herald. They were both fraudsters and MacCarthy's boyfriend, Andrew Davison, soi-disant 'Count of Clandermond', was convicted at Downpatrick Court in 1986 and sentenced to two years in jail on six counts of blackmailing gay men in Belfast. Terence 'MacCarthy' hardly had an illustrious background, stemming as he does from a long line of illiterate labourers, with a dance teacher thrown in for good measure - and his elder brother Anthony "Boot" McCarthy was an INLA member shot dead by Dominic McGlinchey in 1987.

Originally Posted by galloglaigh

De Valera in 1923 lead the IRA after the death in combat of General Liam Lynch and the shooting by Free State Firing squad of the remaining senior officers of the "irregulars". He signed the lay down arms order. Even to this day people have problems determining who is IRA and who is Sinn Fein. Ask the Det and the FRU. Prior to 1923 De Valera called himself President of Dail Eireann when in fact he was appointed Priome Aire (prime minister) according to the minutes of the First Dail. The boss of Sinn Fein was Arthur Griffiths its founder, not Evil Valera, Eamonn Og was the last surviving leader of the Irish Republic declared at the Dublin GPO in Easter 1916. The rest being shot by the British and General Blackadder.

De Valera was elected president of Sinn Féin in 1918, supplanting Arthur Griffith who had held the position since his foundation of the party in 1905.

Whilst De Valera was head of the anti-Treatyites, and called for a ceasefire prior to May 1923, Liam Lynch was Chief-of-Staff of the anti-Treaty IRA from March 1922 until his death in April 1923, when he was succeeded by Frank Aiken, who issued the 'dump arms' order to the Irregulars which saw the end of hostilities (Aiken remained in that position until November 1925)

De Valera was President of Dáil Éireann (1919-21) and President of the Republic (1921-22), but Griffith served as acting President during De Valera's absence in the United States during 1919-21. Cathal Brugha was actually first Prí*omh Aire or President of Dáil Éireann from Jan-April 1919, not De Valera, who did however replace him in April 1919 (he didn't "call himself" President of Dáil Éireann, he was elected as such). In August 1921 De Valera was upgraded to President of the Republic by the Dáil, followed by Griffith at the beginning of 1922, in response to the Treaty split and the outbreak of the Civil War - therefore your claims are factually incorrect.

Originally Posted by galloglaigh

and yes there are no aristocrats except British aristos definitielly up yr ARRSE :P . The Irish Times photo you refer to is filled with persons such as The Magillycuddy of the Reeks, Lord Inchiquin (otherwise The O'Brien), The O'Donoghue, The Maguire to name but a few. Of course Gallowglass you recognise the old seated dear in the front - Yep That is the widow of The Papal Marquis MacSweeney of Manshanglass. The MacSweeney - premier Galloglass clan. From the 12th century Gaelic Kings created barons in their own kingdoms and even awarded the title to Mercenary Norman Knights who fought for them. The Gaelic Term "Cane Poble" being translated from the time of Richard II by the norman english government as Baron. The Gaelige for Lord is "Tiarna". In 1176 , Raymond le Gros was made Baron of Lixnaw in Kerry by Diarmuis 1, MacCarthy Mor in exchange for suppressing a rebelion by his son Prince Cormac MacCarthy. Not a Terence fact but one in tomes 3-400 years before he was born. Not the first time I've heard some mongrel pronounce on who he thinks are mingers and monkeys. Again that is your bias and you are welcome to it -says a lot about you and little about your targets.

Your first line is gobbledegook and therefore hardly worthy of consideration. The Irish Times article I was referring to is not the one you mention. It was penned by one Frank McDonald and appeared in The Irish Times Magazine of Saturday December 2nd 2000; none of the people you list are mentioned in the article; though I understand that the legitimacy of certain of the claims to some of the titles you mention is in question.

You presume that I am "some mongrel" - why? Because I point out the factual errors you are pedaling? Interesting that you should have such ready recourse to cheap slander and the language of the gutter.

Originally Posted by galloglaigh

As for Shortt and your sniping at him from good cover why not contact the man - you have his websites.Ask the man the questions that seem to roll stones across your soul yeh Agoro. Still your in the right place a rumour forum rather that a fact forum.

I am as much 'sniping' at James Shortt from 'good cover' as you are at me. Why would I be bothered to contact him any more than you are - personally, beyond being at times stuck for a laugh, this isn't something that weighs on my mind; it's not something that motivates me enough. If I were to go haring around after every pseudo-aristocrat and Walter Mitty purporting to be what they may or not be I'd be working 24-7 as a private detective. Stop trying to deflect from the issue - my 'questions' stem from the inherent contradictions in his biography and the dubious associations with such types as Terence 'MacCarthy'.

Originally Posted by galloglaigh

Who knows you might get another GSM or even a yank purple heart.

?????????

Originally Posted by galloglaigh

Checking the websites you suggest does show that there were Irish Americans in a detachment called the St Brendan's (the Irish saint with the big old navigator's head on him). All the rest are Irishmen living in Ireland. Though these were associated with Terry Mac - he did not establish them and he is no longer associated with them - their choice. Big old expert head on you after the facts ; not before them.

So they therefore have a notable Irish-American element, and appear in St. Patrick's Day parades in New York (if you want to split hairs then off you go, but they are still laughable). Personally, I don't recall their ever having appeared in Ireland in full regalia. The very fact that they were in any way associated with Terence 'MacCarthy' casts doubt on their legitimacy...and basic common sense.

Originally Posted by galloglaigh

Niadh Nasc was Terry Macs creation - the historical evidence points to a Nasc Nia as (refers in gaelic to a valuable bond or oath not a chain of Gold as claimed by Terry)a company of bodyguards in Munster (Desmond being Southern Munster and Thormond being Northern Munster to correct your earlier preaching on what was the Kingdom of Desmond. The present day Niad Nasc is organised by the Scottish Chieftain The MacKerrel of Hillhouse, and disassociate themselves from MacCerthy and his "successor" baby brother. Get your facts straight

Indeed, the important phrase you use is that the "Niadh Nasc was Terry Macs creation", which rather flies in the face of his own claims as to the order being the oldest in Europe. It would therefore seem that you are conceding that his actions were little more than a crude attempt to piggy-back on history. To the extent that the Niadh Nask of the 'MacCarthy Mór' was a false order of knighthood then my facts are ramrod straight. I neither preached nor even mentioned the Kingdom of Desmond - though I note that you have - but I will point out that 'MacCarthy Mór' in his History of the Eoghanacht Kingdom of Munster from the "Historical Essays on the Kingdom of Munster" makes extensive mention of the Kingdom of Munster.

Originally Posted by galloglaigh

The Irish Heralds office to this day still refuse to release or discuss any of the papers relating to the "MacCarthy" episode. They have made no statement of why the courtesy title was withdrawn , except a quote to enquriing journalists as to certain irregularities in the original application. The whole matter was "exposed" in the Sunday Times(Irish edition) with Sean Murphy as their quoted source. Murphy was the individual who challenged the Office on their recognition and started the ball rolling. So contrary to what you state wee Sean gets the credit (or rather should we say his buddies Scott and George who were at the time backing an alternative MacCarthy Mor). Suprise - Scott and Sean both live in Bray and both have dealings with the Irish Herald's office. The alternative MacCarthy Mor is the descendant of a Man who changed his name by deedpoll to MacCarthy Mor after Norroy and Ulster Herald refused to recognise him. That's right the forerunner of the Irish Republic's Herald - The British Kingdom of Ireland prior to 1922 rejected the application. Interesting having an Irish Republic's chief Herald who has never trained in Heraldry but was a senior librarian. Dammit those G2 fairies are good - ya gurrier Bottomline ; you have a right to your bias - though you may choose your the facts as they suit you and you can't be bothered to sift the many half truths and errors, or leave off your pathetic name calling "Troll" - sad. I won't ask you why Royal Galloglas and matters Irish get up your portals, perhaps Terry held on to your postal orders and didn't send you the shiny lord of the dance badge, but what ever gets you through the night, garsoon. When you want a civilised debate of facts I am on - sticks and stones. Is deacair ceann crionna a chur ar cholainn oig ,gaige !

The documents, letters, and genealogical proofs that Terence 'MacCarthy' presented were found to be in many instances patently false or of dubious origin. He was also attempting to lay claim to the title by circumventing the courtesy recognition granted by the Office of the Chief Herald based on primogeniture, by making sole reference to the Gaelic system of tanistry, which has been defunct since the early 1600s (and even saying that is stretching a point); he also laid heavy emphasis on an alleged meeting in France in the early 20th century, at which he claims that the title of 'MacCarthy Mór' was granted to his family - by pacte de famille - by the Franco-Irish MacCarthys - no record of this alleged meeting exists (because the meeting itself never took place).

True, the Irish Government - under the spiteful Michael D. Higgins - downgraded the Office of the Chief Herald to an adjunct of the National Library of Ireland, but this loophole allowed charlatans such as Terence 'MacCarthy' to slip under the wire (unwittingly assisted by senior members of the Chief Herald's Office taking their eye off the ball); but the fact that he was and is a fraud is hardly in doubt. Split hairs, attempt to deflect, and resort to cheap sneers and insults, but your attempt to prop-up the cause of Terence 'MacCarthy' is pointless as you are arguing after the fact.

The reason that the "Royal Galloglas and matters Irish" ("matters Irish" - are you suggesting that the MacCarthy Mór hoax somehow constitutes Irishness?) "get up [my] portals" (I am taking this to mean 'annoy me') is that they are dubious organisations which in the case of the 'Royal Galloglas' makes a mockery of Irish history and culture, and in the case of the MacCarthy Mór hoax, does both this and is a fraudulent enterprise. So you actually believe that I was one of the gullible social-climbers who attempted to buy themselves respectability? More fool you old man, but were I déclassé enough to disclose anything about myself or my family you might have cause to withdraw your remark...but then again, probably not.

Originally Posted by galloglaigh

Heh gallowglass what is your problem with me being Galloglaigh, your legal patent or something? did you get your name from the Ruth Rendell book ?? Galloglass were defenders of nobility not detractors ( for a price of course).

Had you bothered to actually read my post regarding your use of the designation galloglaigh:

Originally Posted by gallowglass

As to your decision to designate yourself 'galloglaigh' (really, now why did you go and do that?) in direct response to my posting...well, that's the sort of stunt a troll here on ARRSE would pull.

...you would see that I was suggesting(note the conditional tense) that the use by a new member with one posting on an unusual subject of a designation which so closely approximates to that of another member is quite often here on ARRSE the modus operandi of a troll. Strange that you are so ready to liberally dish out unwarranted personal attacks and deliberate insults, yet are quick to take umbrage at what you imagine are insults directed at you, and have equal alacrity in kicking for touch with sniffy demands for a "civilised debate of facts" (something I have been engaging in old boy). It is touching to see how what can only be the voices in your head so frequently interject in your musings (on top of which your grammar and spelling are atrocious, to the extent that I am inclined to believe that you are typing in some form of dialect, and I am not here referring to your lip-service to the Irish language) -

"ya gurrier Bottomline"

"Who knows you might get another GSM or even a yank purple heart"

"yeh Agoro"

"Not the first time I've heard some mongrel pronounce on who he thinks are mingers and monkeys"

"mingers and monkeys"???

"and yes there are no aristocrats except British aristos definitielly up yr ARRSE :P "

"Ask the Det and the FRU"

Indeed - their telephone numbers are in the Golden Pages one supposes? Or perhaps I'll ask a friend who actually served in the former unit.

Well, this has been most amusing and diverting, as I had really thought that the MacCarthy Mór nonsense and its cheerleaders were so much old hat, when lo' and behold along you came spitting fire, bile and balderdash. Before you sink 'neath the weight of your own lack of credibility, it might serve you to post on other topics, or alternatively go away to frolic elsewhere with those who just might give credence to your outpourings.

*edited due to formatting problems

Rivetting tangent boys, no really. I actually read the whole lot through and am now better educated on all things to do with Irish Heraldry than I really needed. By the way I reckon Gallowglass wins with a better logical argument, but hey what do I know.

Getting back on thread I checked out the Victorian branch of the LoF. Fukc me there are a lot of them and they seem to spend a lot of time awarding themselves medals. There are a lot of ex servicemen in their ranks and a lot of youth. The purpose still eludes me dispite their mission including maintaining war graves that the Commonwealth War Grave Commission might have missed. I also sense a strong right of centre aspect to this group but was still surprised to see the endorsement of Mosley on their website.

I couldn't find out any details about the really top guys, particularly the Grand Poo-Bar or about funny handshakes, etc.

A bit too walt for me.

seems to be the fag end of a group who around the time of ww1 were of some use although I bet the war office of the day was'nt too impressed.
but these days have no more use left can't hold weapons have no kit except there uniforms

The Spams love this sort of thing. It is a wonder it hasn't taken off over there.

Birdie,read the home page,they´re already there.They seem to be a well meaning group,it´s a shame that a lot of these groups get infiltrated by people wanting to promote their own objectives,eg,gays in the YMCA,Amnesty International etc.

Midnight,................haven´t learnt much about the LOF,but my knowledge of ancient,Irish history,WoW!!

Mr. Gallowglass, as normal I find your posts interesting and Informative in equal measure.

Yet again I learn about an issue, that I did not know even existed!
Bravo!

IndianaDel,

Thank'ee for the compliment, and you are very welcome. I must say, that apart from the mental exercise which is involved in smoking out these sad, sorry, and unbelievably silly imposters, it is an awful lot of fun!

gallowglass

Hello,

I am a member of the Legion of Frontiersmen (Countess Mountbatten's Own) and I am from Manitoba, Canada.....

I happen to be the only member of the LF(CMO) in my province, and I have to admit that I have little contact with the rest of the group. I joined because I thought as a member I would be able to do some public service and help other members to realize their goals.

The LF(CMO) had it's beginnings in 1904, and several members were involved in the Boer War, WWI, and WWII. Sadly, this resulted in most of them being killed off, and I suppose the rest got tired of being shot at.

I make no military claims, and consider myself a rank amateur at many things, including horsemanship.

For a long time I too wondered what purpose the LF(CMO) had in modern times, I had little contact with other members, and I had seen some discouraging photographs and posts on the internet as well. Most of these are placed by break-away organizations, but all Legion of Frontiersmen groups have some questionable practices.

They do give out medals which have no real purpose. I received the Legion of Frontiersmen Centenary Medal, and someday I might frame it or something. I would never wear it, too much confusion, and frankly I would find it embarrassing to be questioned by a war vet or active soldier.

I tried to find out what the LF(CMO) does, they suggested joining my local Citizens On Patrol Program, and I have. Aside from that there was little clear direction. I decided to do some small things on my own, such as making donations to the local Food Cupboard, library, fire department, etc. I've also started training in horsemanship, and joined the local Emergency Measures Organization. I practice fencing, and have a weight training regimen. So far the LF(CMO) has let me do as I wish.

I was very frustrated that there was so little support, until I did start undertaking these little community projects. Then I realized that I didn't really care what the LF(CMO) could do for me, the only thing that mattered was that I was doing something that I wouldn't have done otherwise.

I hope that someday the Legion of Frontiersmen will be something that every one of you would be proud to be a part of, I know that they could use your help.

God Guard Thee,

-Rick

(P.S. If any of you have any further questions about the LF(CMO) then I would be glad to try and answer them.)

black-rabbit@care2.com

'Kin 'Ell! A live one!!