ARmy Rumour SErvice

Originally Posted by Buzz

That explains so much in just one sentence.

Oh, probably...

Going back to the topic though...

My mum knew when her father died because she heard her cousin asking if he was ready to go. Bearing in mind it was her cousin who drowned age 21 in about 1962 and her father died in 1981.

The insanity probably runs in the family.

At uni reading history in the 90's, I remember reading how ghost stories may be part of 'collective memory' and evidence of historical fact.

There was this story of a ghostly monk in an eerie location. It turns out that it was the site of a long forgotten and no longer visible church. Thus the 'ghost' was part of the collective memory.

Not far from chez moi there is a ghost story attached to a bridge called 'Maiden's Bridge'. Beneath the adjacent field lie the foundations of Elsynge palace where Elizabeth 1 had briefly resided. It was only rediscovered in the 60s.

Was the story of the ghostly maiden part of the collective memory of the maiden queen?

So there you have it folks, ghost stories and historical fact as happy bed fellows! I'm not sure about the existence of ghosts. But a jock bought me a drink once, and I've seen a paddy refuse one, so I anything is possible...

Originally Posted by MagratM

My last house had a ghost- a very nice Edwardian lady called Emily that made the place very homely the minute I walked in. I never had that "new house" feeling of not belonging. I used to see her as reflections in the windows (first floor flat, so no one outside to cast shadows or anything and I was sitting still most times I saw her) and she was a headache when she wanted me to talk to her, but the headache would disappear once I'd worked out what she wanted. When I repainted the living room, I know she didn't like the colour at first because the atmosphere in the living room changed.

Would Emily be up for giving me a heady? I'd even tag team her with Casper if she wanted.

Originally Posted by Mr_Snakey

At uni reading history in the 90's, I remember reading how ghost stories may be part of 'collective memory' and evidence of historical fact.

There was this story of a ghostly monk in an eerie location. It turns out that it was the site of a long forgotten and no longer visible church. Thus the 'ghost' was part of the collective memory.

Not far from chez moi there is a ghost story attached to a bridge called 'Maiden's Bridge'. Beneath the adjacent field lie the foundations of Elsynge palace where Elizabeth 1 had briefly resided. It was only rediscovered in the 60s.

Historical facts are often woven into stories, and these stories change over time while retaining a true core. Let's not forget that only a few centuries ago most people were illiterate, and oral traditions preserved historic and cultural knowledge. History, legends and myths can often only be distinguished by the amount of time that has passed between the happening of an event and the telling of the tale.

On the other hand, ghost stories could also be interpreted as attempts to explain the (at the time) unexplainable. The combination of these two factors, preservation of actual events and attempts to explain the unknown, certainly sheds light on the prevalence of ghost stories in every single known culture. There are some excellent papers about this and related topics by several cultural anthropologists.

I agree with you about not being sure regarding the existence of ghosts and spirits. However, I also consider it a sign of intellectual laziness/complacency to dismiss something outright just because I think it's impossible. The more I learn, the more aware I become of how little I actually know.

Who am I to simply reject the myriad of reports collected over centuries and even millennia? Not to become too philosophical, but how can we even be certain that what we consider reality is indeed real? Perhaps we're all suffering from a mass hallucination? As a matter of fact, the philosophy of perception deals with a concept called epistemological dualism, meaning that what we perceive to be our conscious experience is actually a SIMS-like, virtual reality replica. Leibniz coined the phrase "possible worlds", which has become so popular with science fiction writers, while Skeptical Hypotheses suggest that reality is far different from what we think -- at least we cannot prove that it isn't. The human mind is a most wondrous and, at times dangerous, thing, and we're only beginning to uncover the proverbial tip of the iceberg.

Excerpt from Scientific American, "Ghost stories: Visits from the Deceased," 2 December 2008, Vol. 130
Ghost Stories: Visits from the Deceased: Scientific American

A Common Hallucination
"Mourning seems to be a time when hallucinations are particularly common, to the point where feeling the presence of the deceased is the norm rather than the exception. One study, by the researcher Agneta Grimby at the University of Goteborg, found that over 80 percent of elderly people experience hallucinations associated with their dead partner one month after bereavement, as if their perception had yet to catch up with the knowledge of their beloved’s passing. As a marker of how vivid such visions can seem, almost a third of the people reported that they spoke in response to their experiences. In other words, these weren’t just peripheral illusions: they could evoke the very essence of the deceased.

Occasionally, these hallucinations are heart-rending. A 2002 case report by German researchers described how a middle aged woman, grieving her daughter’s death from a heroin overdose, regularly saw the young girl and sometimes heard her say “Mamma, Mamma!” and “It’s so cold.” Thankfully, these distressing experiences tend to be rare, and most people who experience hallucinations during bereavement find them comforting, as if they were re-connecting with something of the positive from the person’s life. Perhaps this reconnecting is reflected in the fact that the intensity of grief has been found to predict the number of pleasant hallucinations, as has the happiness of the marriage to the person who passed away."

Further to that post, there are so many words in our language to mean ghost, there must be more to it; phantom, spook, spectre and so on.

Is there a culture on the planet which does not contain ghost stories?

Has anybody seen the salisbury black cat?.....................i have

Originally Posted by Mr_Snakey

Is there a culture on the planet which does not contain ghost stories?

I don't think so. Every known culture, past and present, had/has ghost stories -- from the ancient Sumerians (vampire tales!) to the classic Victorian ghost stories that influenced Western literature and shaped our perception of certain supernatural characters (e.g., Bram Stoker's Dracula -- to stay with the vampire theme). I suppose that I am using a rather liberal definition of ghosts by including vampires, daemons, monsters, etc., but as they are all supernatural entities, I hope to be forgiven.

I don't mean to derail this thread, but I find it highly fascinating that some cultures distinguish between good (angels, heroes, gods) and evil (daemons, devils, monsters) creatures, while others do not draw such distinctions. Then of course, according to the Bible Lucifer was the most beautiful angel of all, while in Greek, Roman and Norse mythology gods inhabited and even ruled the underworld.

[QUOTE=Mr_Snakey;4552522]At uni reading history in the 90's, I remember reading how [B]ghost stories may be part of 'collective memory' and evidence of historical fact. [/B]

There was this story of a ghostly monk in an eerie location. It turns out that it was the site of a long forgotten and no longer visible church. Thus the 'ghost' was part of the collective memory. [/QUOTE]

I did my dissertation on this very idea! Was very difficult as in terms of History, ghost stories are just that (whether you believe in such happenings or not) - stories, finding sources and backing up arguments with solid evidence proved difficult since any history passed down via ghost stories is usually oral history and prone to the effects of chinese whispers. Even when it's written down you have to question the motives of the person claiming to have seen such things - e.g. it could be argued Elizabeth Price's 1641 deposition detailing ghosts of those massacred in the river bann was a deliberate story to stir up anger towards the Irish and to fuel revenge attacks.

I scribbled some guff about collective memory and the visual manifestation of collective guilt. It ended up being as much a psychology paper as an analysis of certain groups in periods of history who had claimed to have seen ghosties. Still I somehow passed it!

You don't half get some funny looks when people ask what you did your dissertation on, but in my defence I had no choice, I was told it had to be something to do with the supernatural and witchcraft/reformation had already been nabbed!