ARmy Rumour SErvice

Originally Posted by PaddyK

Originally Posted by lastresort

Londonirish, if you're interested in this sort of thing, look up the Waffen-SS Division (the 14th, I think) formed at Odessa in '43-'44. An all-volunteer unit, they were established for 20,000 men, had 50,000 volunteers above the required standard, and ended up turning over 20,000 of them away. Many of whom presumably ended up on the other side later on.

Practically all of them were wiped out at Brody-Tarnow within a month of deployment in Summer '44, but elements were still surrendering to the US sector as late as early 1948.

It is believed that hundreds of veterans from the Galician division were permitted to settle in the UK and the Commonwealth after the war. To be honest, I don't think the SS-Personal-Hauptamt would have tolerated the rejection of 20,000 volunteers. The Waffen-SS was desperate for manpower by late 1943...

PK

Indeed; one's a pig farmer in West Yorkshire and I squired his daughter for a while in my youth.

Originally Posted by londonirish

Originally Posted by mnairb

What you have to realise, is that until 1943, the Germans were seen to be winning and were occupying territory from the Urals to the Atlantic to the Mediteranean. The Gestapo were never strong enough to control an area this size and relied on the tried and tested formula of 'divide and rule' using local collaborators (the British in India comes to mind here).

There are always opportunists in any country that will take advantage of a situation like this and it would have been no different if the Germans had invaded Britain in 1940 (the Duke of Windsor brought back as king and Lord Halifax as PM for example).

The fact is, most people want an easy life and, certainly in France, until the tide turned against Germany, the resistance were seen as a pain in the neck by most French people. Imagine how you would feel if you were left alone by the occupying forces and someone from out of your area comes in, shoots a German or commits an act of sabotage, buggers off and leaves you to take the rap. Who would you feel pissed off about - the Germans or the Resistance?

Phrases like "what you have to realise" are dissarming by design, but nevertheless.

I take issue with your bold above...I say again, I find it hard to imagine that many UK citizens, ( there would have been some, read SSGB, a work of fiction, like this bit of the thread) even if we had have been overrun, would have believed an argument that we should forget the recent "difficulties" and go and fight the common Bolshevik foe, having been invaded.

Britain and Ireland are unique in the west European sphere in their island status, and that counts for a lot, even subliminally, in the make-up of the people.

Because of our "sovereign" status, in every sense of the word, we would have seen it far more as us against the foreigners, rather than this or that political argument/hue.

Magna Carta, being a freeman, maritime trade nation etc...

Just my opinion...if I am wrong however, what on earth was the whole scrap for?

If you have a moment borrow this film from Amazon...
"It happened here"

Originally Posted by fantassin

Yes fascinating to see so much time for nazi murderers and so warped views on anything French.

We can't be living in the same country...when I think one of my teacher during a Master's degree told us, in a Paris university, of the "genocide commited by the French army in Algeria in the 50s and 60s" I wonder how much more guilt you can heap on students unaware of what the situation was back then.

Paris is now full of plaques "commemorating" the arrest of jews, the killing of algerians and God knows what.

The France 2 TV channel even has a series of TV drama especially dedicated to the "black spots" of French history; how much more can you ask for ?

Your interpretation of French history suits your agenda and too bad if it does not match the truth. In this, it's quite tpical of a certain anglo way of looking at France; it's "so quaint" and good enough to produce cheeses and wines and to spend "a year in Provence". For the rest, the views are ever so patronizing and if one does not agree, it's "because he could not cope with the lost grandeur of France";

Of course....

First of all, ex-Para though I am, I am also pure blood Irish, Monsieur Fantasie. I doubt indeed that we inhabit the same country. As far as I am concerned, some of the Frenchmen I know do not even inhabit the same planet as myself.

Your response is fairly typical of the kind of attitudes that have retarded the evolution of your country. Look at your reaction to being told that France murdered more than a million Algerians, who were French at the time as Algeria was not a colony but a French region or département. Instead of displaying any sense of regret, you whine about this nasty lecturer who pricked your comfortable little bubble with half a syringeful of truth and reality.

One of Jean-Marie Le Pen's most telling broadsides about his compatriots was unleashed when he described France as un pays assisté. Summarised, it means that Frenchmen in general are unable to assume responsibility for anything. it's always someone else's fault.

Your sneering remarks about "a year in Provence" are misplaced here. I've lived in your country for years. In fact, some of it is MY country because (a) I have French ancestors and (b) the blood and bones of a good few of my family rest in French soil, which they died liberating.

It is also quite clear to me that my knowledge of the periods discussed here is vastly superior to yours. This is because you and those like you are in denial about those parts of French history you would prefer to forget. There are plenty of French people trying to change this but your reaction is fairly typical: you are critical of the fact that there are commemorative plaques and television documentaries reminding you of things that do not sit easily with France's view of itself as the country of the rights of man and the arbiter of European civilisation and intellectualism.

You shoot the messengers instead of heeding the messages. How typically French. As for your implication that I am peddling some sort of pro-Nazi agenda here, that is also very predictable. Instead of debating my points, you resort to classic ad hominem smear tactics. However, the good news is that France is on the brink of a change. She is about to be dragged kicking and screaming into the real world and there'll be quite a few French people asking their doctors for Prozac or sticking their heads in ovens as a result.

:D

PK

Originally Posted by Alsacien

Originally Posted by Provost_Marshal

I've never really been that keen on the French and reading your drivel fantassin, I've just realised why.

You cannot have a problem with the "French". France is a collective of 60+ million indivuals that rarely share the same view, I doubt you know enough of them to support the statement.
Fantassin is pretty much right in what he says, but then so is PaddyK.

This issue has a lot of different perspectives, not to mention regional variations.
I would agree with PaddyK about large parts of France being in denial, as opposed to the "collective guilt" which is manifest in Germany.
In the area I know well, Alsace/Vosges, denial is not a problem and there is a feeling of shared French/German suffering going back as far as living memory.
Issues are talked about, but blame is only pushed in the direction of policy makers, not the people involved.

Aw f*ck off.

Originally Posted by Biscuits_AB

Originally Posted by Alsacien

Originally Posted by Provost_Marshal

I've never really been that keen on the French and reading your drivel fantassin, I've just realised why.

You cannot have a problem with the "French". France is a collective of 60+ million indivuals that rarely share the same view, I doubt you know enough of them to support the statement.
Fantassin is pretty much right in what he says, but then so is PaddyK.

This issue has a lot of different perspectives, not to mention regional variations.
I would agree with PaddyK about large parts of France being in denial, as opposed to the "collective guilt" which is manifest in Germany.
In the area I know well, Alsace/Vosges, denial is not a problem and there is a feeling of shared French/German suffering going back as far as living memory.
Issues are talked about, but blame is only pushed in the direction of policy makers, not the people involved.

Aw f*ck off.

Educated comment from a Sun reader.....

A Sun reader? I doubt you know me well enough to support that comment. You c*ck.

Originally Posted by Biscuits_AB

A Sun reader? I doubt you know me well enough to support that comment. You c*ck.

Oh, now he's calling me names..

If the cap fits...

Originally Posted by Biscuits_AB

Originally Posted by Alsacien

Originally Posted by Provost_Marshal

I've never really been that keen on the French and reading your drivel fantassin, I've just realised why.

You cannot have a problem with the "French". France is a collective of 60+ million indivuals that rarely share the same view, I doubt you know enough of them to support the statement.
Fantassin is pretty much right in what he says, but then so is PaddyK.

This issue has a lot of different perspectives, not to mention regional variations.
I would agree with PaddyK about large parts of France being in denial, as opposed to the "collective guilt" which is manifest in Germany.
In the area I know well, Alsace/Vosges, denial is not a problem and there is a feeling of shared French/German suffering going back as far as living memory.
Issues are talked about, but blame is only pushed in the direction of policy makers, not the people involved.

Aw f*ck off.

Short and to the point :D It did make me snort....