Originally Posted by One_of_the_strange

Really Mora, you have lost the plot. If terrorists killing soldiers is "justice" why does Israel complain so when the pallies launch a Merkava into orbit with a strategically placed pile of HE ? Does that mean that detonating a bomb inside a bar in Tel Aviv is justified just as long as on off-duty soldier or two is caught in the blast ? I don't think so, but then again I don't think terrorists murdering a vicar as they were too incompetent to target his brother properly is a good thing either.

interesting IDF said when Hizballah targeted soldiers they're not terrorists!

...incidentally, after just quickly checking, those references you've posted seem to have little relevance to the subject. ?

I have on more than one occasion locked horns with Taz_786 on matters relating to the Middle East, but in this matter I find myself in agreement with him.

Whilst I broadly class myself as 'pro-Israeli', I have to say that I am quite taken aback by the views propounded by mora, and am thankful that I have not completely lost control of my critical faculties to the extent that mora apparently has. 'My country right or wrong' is not a defensible standpoint, and I say this as an Irishman who has all too often found himself at the receiving end of just the sort of narrow-focus revolutionary nationalism that mora has consistently displayed. Extreme nationalsim of the sort on show here is an insidious and dangerous thing, most of all because it poisons the person and wider nation, leading to an inverted morality quite at odds with common practice. No matter what the cause or grievance (real or imagined); no matter what the 'other side' is doing, any people have morally compromised themselves when they resort to terrorism, and this compromise is compounded when revolutionary moralists spend the years and decades after the smoke has cleared trying to justify these actions.

On a minor point of historical accuracy, the Stern Gang made overtures to the Third Reich with a view to an anti-British alliance. Doubtless this too is 'justifiable'.

Isn't the purpose of this recognition of the passing of Major Roy Farran not to pay tribute to his life and career? - it is therefore a little distasteful to hijack this for the purposes of scoring dubious political points and engaging in outlandish historical revisionism.

Rest in Peace Major Farran, we shall not see your like again. You were one of the old school.

Originally Posted by Whiskybreath

...incidentally, after just quickly checking, those references you've posted seem to have little relevance to the subject. ?

To your quest I answer this
The Colonial Office confidential file case from 1947 (CO537/2302), recently opened, and file case (CO537/3872) which already opened a few years ago.

Originally Posted by gallowglass

On a minor point of historical accuracy, the Stern Gang made overtures to the Third Reich with a view to an anti-British alliance. Doubtless this too is 'justifiable'.

Zionists who tried to establish contact with the Nazis did so with only one intention: to rescue Jewish lives from Nazi occupied Europe. The Muslim Brotherhood and Haj Amin al-Husseini sought out Nazi assistance and adopted Nazi symbols because like the Nazis, they desired to murder all Jews, besides murdering any Arab opponent of theirs who didn't want to annihilate Jews.

Stern "gang"/Lehi was a tiny fringe organiation (500 members at most), which hoped it could make a deal with the Nazis to save Europe's Jews by getting them to Palestine. As the 'final solution' was not adopted by the Nazis until 1942, they were not behaving wholly irrationally.

As soon as Mussolini joined Hitler, definitely "Revisionsts" ( Irgun/Sternists) turned against him totally and completely. As a matter of fact, the first commander of Irgun, David Raziel, was killed guiding British troops acting against the Rashid Ali Al-Qiliani revolt in Iraq in, by a German airplane. The Sternists were always more extremists, marginal, "truly revolutionists", one British historian called them, by recent study.

Israel also negotiated costly with Arab terrorist organization to free its citizens, by paying them all sort of things. What's your point? Not to turn the world on its head and accuse them to assist the killing of the Jews. That's is odious cant.

Yes, but what I was trying to tell you was that nothing on those pages actually tells us anything relevant. The pages may well point to offline (and unavailable online) evidence. It's up to you to persuade, not up to us to do your research.

Yes, but what I was trying to tell you was that nothing on those pages actually tells us anything relevant. The pages may well point to offline (and unavailable online) evidence. It's up to you to persuade, not up to us to do your research.

So it can be helpful for TangoFowerAlpha who started this thread.

Originally Posted by TangoFowerAlpha

I`m trying to establish if the transcript, or other record, of the court martial of Major Roy Farran exists and, if so, where.

Major Farran was a much decorated WW2 cavalry and SAS officer tried in Palestine (I believe in 1947?) for implication in the death of a member of the Stern Gang after the King David Hotel bomb.

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Originally Posted by mora

Originally Posted by gallowglass

On a minor point of historical accuracy, the Stern Gang made overtures to the Third Reich with a view to an anti-British alliance. Doubtless this too is 'justifiable'.

Lehi was a tiny fringe organiation (500 members at most), which hoped it could make a deal with the Nazis to save Europe's Jews by getting them to Palestine. As the 'final solution' was not adopted by the Nazis until 1942, they were not behaving wholly irrationally.

Israel also negotiated costly with Arab terrorist organization to free its citizens, by paying them all sort of things. What's your point? Not to turn the world on its head and accuse them to assist the killing of the Jews. That's is odious cant.

As you say mora, the Stern Gang/Lehi were a "tiny fringe organisation"....as are most terrorist groups (the PIRA are estimated to have had no more than 50-100 'full-time' volunteers); numbers in terrorist groups mean little, as such groups have an effect quite out of proportion to their actual size (which in terms of simple survival is usually small). Yes, the Final Solution did not begin until 1942, but as you well know, Jews had been persecuted and killed in the Third Reich since 1933, and mass killings of Jews had taken place since the invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941. At a stretch, the Stern Gang were not behaving 'irrationally' (at least in terms of their own outlook), but they were guilty of either immoral opportunism - did they honestly believe that they could deal with the Nazis? - or stunning naïveté.

Don't try and shift the focus of my words by dragging in Israel's sometime negotiation with Arab terrorists (which, as far as I have been able to gather, has not been that often - and quite rightly too), and thereby hope to portray me as someone who would acquiesce at the killing of Jews - that is morally dishonest and shows an aversion to actually addressing my points. "[T]urning the world on its head" is precisely what would have happened had a Nazi/Stern Gang alliance actually come about - while a successful alliance may have saved some Jews, in the long run the Allies would have lost the war, and the Nazis would have been free to fully implement the Final Solution. The IRA adhere to a similar form of thinking - it's called "England's difficulty is Ireland's opportunity", and it's why they sided with Imperial Germany, Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, East Germany, Gaddafi's Libya...spot a pattern?

At a stretch, the Stern Gang were not behaving 'irrationally' (at least in terms of their own outlook), but they were guilty of either immoral opportunism - did they honestly believe that they could deal with the Nazis? - or stunning naïveté.

Here you don't know the real history, sadly. The Germans agree! the british refused!. Hence the ferocious attacks on british after the holocaust revealed.

A (non-public) statement handed to the American Ambassador in London in December 1943, when there appeared a possibility of securing the departure of seventy thousand Jews from Romania. The Ambassador was informed that 'the Foreign Office are concerned with the difficulties of disposing of any considerable number of Jews should they be rescued from enemy-occupied territory'.

Irgun/Lehi took it as refusing deliberately to save the Jews ( not to anger the Arab/oil interests )

Originally Posted by mora

At a stretch, the Stern Gang were not behaving 'irrationally' (at least in terms of their own outlook), but they were guilty of either immoral opportunism - did they honestly believe that they could deal with the Nazis? - or stunning naïveté.

Here you don't know the real history, sadly. The Germans agree! the british refused!. Hence the ferocious attacks on british after the holocaust revealed.

You're going to have to explain that one to me mora - "[t]he Germans agree! the british refused!" - do I take it that you mean that the Nazis 'agreed' to the Stern Gang's proposals (a view somewhat contradicted by the following):

http://www.jewishreference.com/polit...stzionism.html

In 1940 and 1941, NMO (Stern Gang/Lehi) proposed intervening in the Second World War on the side of Nazi Germany[1] to attain their help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine and to offer their assistance in "evacuating" the Jews of Europe arguing that "common interests could exist between the establishment of a new order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO." Late in 1940, the NMO representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig and delivered a letter from NMO offering to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich". Von Hentig forwarded the letter to the German embassy in Ankara, but there is no record of any official response. Lehi tried to establish contact with the Germans again in December 1941, also apparently without success.

A diplomat forwarding a letter does not indicate 'agreement', and as shown in the above passage, nothing came of the Stern Gang's approach.

So if I have this right, the fact that - as you see it - the Nazis 'agreed' to the Stern Gang's 'pact with the Devil' proposal (for that is what it was) places them, and the Stern Gang's activities, on a higher moral plane than the British...if so, then this only proves my earlier reference to 'revolutionary morality'.