Useful

**fantassin** · 03-02-2012, 14:30

Horizontal collaboration was not limited to France or the Channel Islands. It started in Germany, a country which never had any resistance movement in spite of being invaded twice during the 20th Century, as soon as the Russian arrived for example.

Works such as "A woman In Berlin" show that when survival is at stake, women can leave decency aside in order not to starve.

A Woman in Berlin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BTW, I recommend this book, it's an excellent read.

**Goldbricker** · 03-02-2012, 15:50

Originally Posted by fantassin

Horizontal collaboration was not limited to France or the Channel Islands. It started in Germany, a country which never had any resistance movement in spite of being invaded twice during the 20th Century, as soon as the Russian arrived for example.

Works such as "A woman In Berlin" show that when survival is at stake, women can leave decency aside in order not to starve.

A Woman in Berlin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BTW, I recommend this book, it's an excellent read.

Started in France in 1940, Germany in 45. And Mass Rape by the RKKA isnt exactly collaboration.

**fantassin** · 03-02-2012, 16:21

Originally Posted by Goldbricker

Started in France in 1940, Germany in 45. And Mass Rape by the RKKA isnt exactly collaboration.

Read the book first.

Run your mouth after.

Horizontal collaboration is as old as warfare; women go with the victors, not with the defeated, period.

**Alec_Lomas** · 03-02-2012, 16:44

Originally Posted by RhodieBKK

In spite of the allegations you site, which I have not come across before, I have never heard an ill-word spoken about the gallant Colonel Maurice. The sainted Vera always spoke of him with reverence and great fondness.
Nonetheless, I do hold that Foot has probably had the best overview on F-Section and factionalism amongst the various Resistance groups.
Would be interested in hearing your views further on this.

I do have high regard for MRD and his writings, however, as with all historians, they do bear scrutiny. Publicly, there were never ill words spoken about about Col Maurice or Vera. I have not as yet read the biography on Vera, but I will say with great confidence, that she was treated rather shabbily by the post war intelligence community which went as far as suggesting that her allegiances were to another power.

I'd first noticed Vera's name when I was working on a project on SF operations in the Voges mountains ( Ops - Loyton, Pistol & Bull Basket) One of the old & bold involved in those ops spoke of her with fondness as they'd worked together in pursuing Nazi war criminals. She had the reputation of being an exceptional de-briefer. When I found myself at Ashford, I tried to look her up in Winchelsea but she never agreed to a meet. I do socialise with some folks who were very close to her.

I do share your opinion that Foot had the best overview on 'F' Section and the internecine French squabbles.

**Goldbricker** · 03-02-2012, 17:02

Originally Posted by fantassin

Read the book first.

Run your mouth after.

Horizontal collaboration is as old as warfare; women go with the victors, not with the defeated, period.

Run? I'm not a frog.... still you equate mass rape by the red army with french woman throwing themselves at Germans. Your pop was named Helmut wasnt he?

**velcrostripes** · 03-02-2012, 17:37

Originally Posted by Old Nig

It is an oxymoron, just like Scottish Amicable. (Acknowledgements Brian Moore.)
BTW I did once read SS GB by Len Deighton and found it a cracking read. Scary how close we came, how would we have dealt with occupation I wonder?

Given the mindset of the British Civil Service , we would have been completely and utterly f*cked . Let's face it , the Third Reich was no more than a rehearsal for the EU,and our civil service has embraced the EU rather too wholeheartedly, so no reason why they wouldn't have acted the same in November 1940.

**Pigshyt_Freeman** · 03-02-2012, 17:40

Originally Posted by velcrostripes

Given the mindset of the British Civil Service , we would have been completely and utterly f*cked . Let's face it , the Third Reich was no more than a rehearsal for the EU,and our civil service has embraced the EU rather too wholeheartedly, so no reason why they wouldn't have acted the same in November 1940.

Yes, only this very morning, inspectors from the Weights and Measures people machine-gunned two hundred Gypsies in a pit.

**TalaveraTom** · 03-02-2012, 17:46

Originally Posted by hackle

You might want to remind yourself of the sequence of events. In very brief summary, Allies Britain and France declared war on Germany as a result of its refusal to withdraw from its invasion of their ally, Poland. If land forces were to be engaged it was obvious that the main engagement would be in the general area between France and Germany, as in 1914, and that is why British land forces were deployed well before the German invasion of the Low Countries.

Casualty figures vary, but maybe 85,000 French military dead in that short but bloody campaign. French national morale did largely collapse following the success of the blitzkrieg, but "lack of resistance" seems an inadequate description.

Hackle, the point of my post was not a critique of French military resistance, but a comment on their behaviour and resistance toward Britain afterwards. But out of interest...While De Gaulle fled France and was transmitting messages through the BBC, the vichy government were capitulating at every turn to the Germans. The fact that there were relatively few resistance fighters, merely highlights the bravery of those individuals involved. But it does beg the question, Why did it take the SOE's Jedburgh operations to co-ordinate these few into effective and cohesive resistance? Surely the French intelligence agencies knew that it was a distinct possibility they would be overrun by the Germans, Considering the success of French Jedburgh teams against the Japanese in Indo China 1945, why the lack of preparations in defending their homeland at the start of the war?