Where is the sodding OP?

Glorious Bomb, you are still on line.

Come back here and justify yourself.

Or is it 'Unconditional Surrender'.........................








Again.

Sorry Burps - Dresden: Tuesday, 13 February, 1945:Amazon:Books and OU course 'War, Peace and Social Change' as part of my history degree but feel free to dismiss it as cut and paste from wiki. I am old enough to have lived with the consequences - what with my mother's first husband being a bomber pilot and all....

Originally Posted by saladin

.....and then there is the whole " We knew but did nothing about it" argument - or why did we not have the Einsatzgruppen in the Norden Sight more often.... says he, not long back from a visit Belzec.

Well I don't think those arguments hold much water. Pretty hard to bomb the Ukraine or Poland from the UK.

Originally Posted by GloriousBomb

On the other hand, we all know that towards the end of the war, the strategy of Bomber Command was mainly to incinerate entire cities in Germany. Civilians were not killed as unavoidable "collateral damage" during the bombing of industries or military installations, but they were the target of the attacks, in an attempt to lower German morale. Historic town centers and residential areas were erased, in many cases (two examples are Dresden and Darmstadt) there were raids on areas with hardly any industry while the industrial areas a few miles outside of the town centres were spared.

Is this memorial only meant to honour the airmen who risked their lives, or is it also meant to justify or even glorify the the extent to which Germany was destroyed?

As far as I have understood, the memorial will display a quote by Churchill saying:

"The gratitude of every home in our Island, in our Empire, and indeed throughout the world, except in the abodes of the guilty, goes out to the British airmen who, undaunted by odds, unwearied in their constant challenge and mortal danger, are turning the tide of the World War by their prowess and by their devotion."

This really sounds more like a glorification of the bombing campaign than anything else. and so does the design of the memorial and it's place in the centre of London. It seems like a big, defiant "WE ARE STILL PROUD OF EVERY SINGLE BOMB WE DROPPED ON THE BLOODY GERMANS WHO ALL DESERVED IT, INCLUDING THE SURVIVORS WHO WERE CHILDREN BACK THEN".

Have I misunderstood something here?

One last note:

I do not mean to point a finger at the British, since I am fully aware that Germany started that war and fought in an equally ruthless manner, and the German army an SS committed even worse atrocities during that time. This should go without saying for most of you but I though I should mention it so that even the least intelligent 10% of forum members would know that I'm not in for a finger pointing competition.

Best greetings from across the North Sea,

A German in his 20s

We do not know that the strategy was to incinerate German cities. The targets were Transport related, Rail or Main supply Routes. Or aimed at Petrol and fuel supplies. If petrol supply tanks are hit, there is a tendency for them to be highly inflammable.

Originally Posted by LancePrivateJones

Where is the sodding OP?

Glorious Bomb, you are still on line.

Come back here and justify yourself.

Or is it 'Unconditional Surrender'.........................








Again.

Still fancy it to be a wah but at least it's developed into something more amusing.....

.......Jackboots v Gaiters/Ammo Boots?

Originally Posted by Nato Standard123

Still fancy it to be a wah but at least it's developed into something more amusing.....

.......Jackboots v Gaiters/Ammo Boots?

Just noticed that this is in the dreaded Current Affairs bit.

I think it should really be in Military History to be honest.

It is always easy to pass judgement with the benefit of hindsight. At the time the British did not know the battle of Britain would end in a German defeat. In the Falklands I did not know a friend would die, nor that in the Gulf my unit would come through without a casualty.

During the war the British had the examples of, the Zeppelin raids of WWI, the Guernica raid and others during the Spanish civil war, Warsaw, Rotterdam, Coventry. London, Liverpool, etc.

The only way to strike back in Europe was by air attack, by 1941 the Butt report by civil servant David Butt was published, the British knew that the bombing was inaccurate, but there was nothing else to attack with. The German war effort was certainly affected by the bombing campaign, huge amounts of resources were held in Europe against the bombing, one result ,often overlooked, of the dambuster's raid is most dams in Germany, formerly unguarded, now had to be manned, the troops came from somewhere.

The morale side was overstated throughout the war, but when the Germans were defeated there could be no 'Betrayed and stabbed in the back' legend, the fruits of defeat were there for all to see.

The men of the RAF and USAAF who made this happen were ordinary men doing extraordinary things and rightly, if belatedly deserve their memorial.

Finally, as has been said, in no way, shape, or form, can the conduct of the war by the main protagonists be adjudged 'equal' there are no preserved camps equivalent to Treblinka, Sobibor, Auschwitz-Birkenau, or others too numerous to be mentioned here, to be found on British territories, apart from the one established on Alderney CI.

I apologise for the length of this post, but the constant attempts to try and drag the allies, in particular the British Empire, to moral equivalence with that of Germany is repugnant and should be responded to every time, my grandfather spent 11 years out of 31 fighting the Germans.

Originally Posted by LancePrivateJones

Just noticed that this is in the dreaded Current Affairs bit.

I think it should really be in Military History to be honest.

Sir Max Hastings will be along in a minute to tell you the error of your ways (unless you are he and it's an even bigger wah than I thought).

I'm a broken man, weeping in my dog's basket for a generation that I know personally cos I saw them on the Military History channel.

African / Eurasian swallow vs Norden bomb sight.

The magnitude and horror of the crimes against humanity that the German people willingly participated in in the 40's, some might say, would carry the death sentence.... The people knew what was going on, and still went ahead with it, they were as complicit to them as the commanders of the SS and concentration camp administrators!

At the end of the day, you DON'T get an opinion about memorials to our War Heroes. If you had some, you'd understand...

Originally Posted by LancePrivateJones

You miserable old sod.

It was quite enjoyable until you turned up.

I quite like your idea about Norden Sight vs Polish Einsatzgruppen though.

Is the sight to be deployed against the death squad in isolation- ie, to beat them with? Or with the benefit of a bomber around it carrying bombs which it'll be used to direct onto them?