Originally Posted by johno2499

I must say that I find "England made competent troops from the Welsh, Jocks and Paddys" is not only condescending and racist but factually incorrect.

Didn't manage to nurture much of a sense of humour either, then.

This is an extract from a letter received from a family friend regarding my Uncle's service in Burma. Uncle was with the KOSB, brigaded with 4/8 Gurkhas (89 Bde) in 7 Div from Sept 1943: -

"The Arakan: for two years I awoke for dawn stand-to piously thanking God that I was not in the Arakan, but in the Chin Hills sector.
The Arakan: 105 degrees in the shade and 99 degrees humidity and not a breath of wind. In February 1944 a Punjabi Battalion broke, the Japs, quick to exploit a weakness, poured through a mile wide gap to the Ngokedank Pass and Admin Box. After fighting for 18 days, dependent on air drops for ammunition, food and material, 7 Div and 5 Div beat back the Japs, our first success in Burma after 27 months of defeats."

I'm not sure which Punjabi Bn he refers to or the circumstances, but it must have been a hell of a push to break them.

Originally Posted by Team_SLAG

This is an extract from a letter received from a family friend regarding my Uncle's service in Burma. Uncle was with the KOSB, brigaded with 4/8 Gurkhas (89 Bde) in 7 Div from Sept 1943: -

"The Arakan: for two years I awoke for dawn stand-to piously thanking God that I was not in the Arakan, but in the Chin Hills sector.
The Arakan: 105 degrees in the shade and 99 degrees humidity and not a breath of wind. In February 1944 a Punjabi Battalion broke, the Japs, quick to exploit a weakness, poured through a mile wide gap to the Ngokedank Pass and Admin Box. After fighting for 18 days, dependent on air drops for ammunition, food and material, 7 Div and 5 Div beat back the Japs, our first success in Burma after 27 months of defeats."

I'm not sure which Punjabi Bn he refers to or the circumstances, but it must have been a hell of a push to break them.

I have done a bit of digging and can't quite square the accounts I have of the Arakan with your uncle's notes, so it's hard to know who he was referring to. The Japanese did infiltrate through the 7 Div lines (which were pretty thin) and take Taung Bazaar in early 1944. As he served in the 89th Bde he may have meant the 7/2nd Punjab Regiment. The 7th Bn was a wartime Bn and was indeed at Ngakyedauk Pass (which is what I think he meant by "Ngokedank Pass"), though the 2nd Punjab was awarded 'Ngakyedauk Pass' as a battle honour, so if they did break they either did it at a very high cost or redeemed themselves there later.

Other Punjab Bns in the 7th Ind Div were the 4/14 Punjab Regt, the 4/15 Punjab Regt and there was also the 1/11th Sikh Regt who he may have been misidentified as Punjabis.

RP - clarification PM'd...

T_S,

PM RXed and ACKed. Further to the above account:

The 89th Bde changed units in its ORBAT throughout that period, but 2 KOSB and 4/8 GR were constant pretty throughout. At first they were joined by 7/16 Punjab, but they were replaced in Oct 1943 by the 7/2 Punjab who lasted until April of 1944 when they were removed from Orbat (wiped out perhaps?). In May of 1944 the 1/11th Sikhs filled the empty slot in 89 Bde alongside 2KOSB and 4/8GR right through till the closing months of the War. In July 1945 the 89 Bde consisted of 1/11Sikhs, 3/6GR, 4/8GR and 7th York & Lancs Regt.

All this supposes that 7/2 Punjab was wiped of the Allied ORBAT by the Japanese in Feb-Mar 1944 and was probably the unit referred to in the account as the Punjabi Bn which broke.

Re the documentary - I've seen it twice on the TV and I agree that was a superb piece of film.

Re the Punjabis - 7/16th Punjab was moved to 406 Line-of-Communications Area Troops and was temporarily attached to 81 (West African) Div in the Kaladan and later 'Hubforce' during that period, so it wasn't them. 7/2nd Pubjab left 89 Bde to become the 7 Div Defence Bn in March 1944 and the Div Recce Bn in Nov 1944. As has been said, they were replaced in 89 Bde by 1(KGO)/11th Sikhs (The Ferozepore Sikhs). I've not heard of the breaking Punjabi unit in the Admin Box, but I'll have a rummage in the books. It does have to be said though that it was reasonably common for members of regiments to tell dark rumours of other regiments - particularly if they were of a different race or nationality; the unjustified criticism of the West Africans being one case in point.

It's also worth mentioning that not all companies within a Punjab battalion were necessarily PMs. For example, the four companies of 7/16th Punjab were A - Dogra, B - Sikh, C - PM & D - Hindu.

Originally Posted by johno2499

Just as the PM was the backbone of the Indian army, it must be said that the Irish formed the backbone of the British Army in the 19th century. I must say that I find "England made competent troops from the Welsh, Jocks and Paddys" is not only condescending and racist but factually incorrect. PMs are excellent soldiers. The Scots and Irish are excellent soldiers. England has nothing to do with these truisms. England - or to be correct GB particularly Slim - totally underrated some nationalities as soldiers (I refer to the African and Caribbean troops deployed in Burma)

Ref the Irish being the Armys backbone -

Genuine question here but how do we know that the Irish made up the backbone of the British Army? I have heard this a few times now but have always just put it down as a bit of a myth.

Was each recruits nationality indivdually recorded upon enlistment back then?

I can beleive that many troubled young Irishmen joined the Army to escape poverty and so perhaps were over represented amongst the ranks when compared to others but I just have some diffculty beleiving that they were the "backbone" of the Army. As I understand that phrase anyway.


Also, could the reason why many Brits underated the Indian and African troops just stem from the general slightly racist beliefs of the era? After all, the "Fuzzy Wuzzys" and "Wogs" etc had been conquered and ruled over with relative ease, so surely this leads to the Brits having a slightly high opinion of themselves in comparison?

The Brits werent the only people to hold such views either, For many people in Asia it was a great shock for them to learn that the "unbeatable" white British Soldiers could actually be sent packing by the supposedly inferior Japanese.

Cheers Sigs - clarification PM sent. I don't want to cast aspertions on any unit and the implication of the word "broke" can be a very damning statement. There's clearly some doubt about the author's account, so any authentic and qualified accounts would be appreciated. In the meantime can we assume that the 7/2 Punjab record is unblemished...

Thanks, SLAG

Well these stories also often arise from a misunderstanding - it happens. Clearly the original author's opinions were drawn from his own experience or perceptions or those of someone he'd spoken to. Those opinions simply might not have been correct. We've all been there and done that.

A very good example of this is 50 Indian Para Brigade's shameful treatment after their heroic stand at Sangshak (see Harry Seaman's 'The Battle at Sangshak'), after which Brigadier Hope-Thomson was sacked despite his brigade holding back the Japanese long enough to allow the defence of Kohima to be organised. The truth was only learned years later and by then it was too late for Hope-Thomson.

Back to the original topic - another heroic and tragic story of Muslim heroism in the service of Britain is that of the last stand of the 7/10th Baluch Regt at Kuzeik in 1942. Even more tragic is the last stand of 'C' Company, 152 (Indian) Para Bn at Point 7378, during the prelude to Sangshak. Nothing was known about the fate of John Fuller's 'C' Coy until this was found in a diary on the body of Colonel Utata Fukunaga (CO of 58th Imperial Japanese Infantry Regt) in the aftermath of Kohima:

‘By mid-morning the enemy’s fire slackened considerably. Suddenly, from the top of the hill, a small group of about twenty men charged down towards us, firing and shouting in a counter-attack. However, between us was a wide ravine which they had been unable to see, and of those who were still alive, some fell into it in their rush onwards while the rest had no choice but to surrender. A few escaped. At the very top of the position an officer appeared in sight, put a pistol to his head and shot himself in full view of everyone below. Our men fell silent, deeply impressed by such a brave act… At Point 7378 the 3rd Battalion suffered 160 casualties in the action, with one company and two platoon commanders killed and another four officers wounded… The enemy had resisted with courage and skill.’