ARmy Rumour SErvice

**No.9** · 04-01-2010, 12:04

Would agree Cuddles, my conclusion. Everything was set-up for Michael and a quick and extremely confidential change was made at the 11th hour. Bread dipped in and nothing said ;)

No.9

**brettarider** · 04-01-2010, 12:20

Interested in this thread as grew up near were the Dasher blew up and there has been stories out there that it was torpedoed but I believe it was caused by an AVGAS leakage. There is a recently added memorial in Ardrossan shore front to the Dasher. My grandfather was home on leave and was in the cinema when it blew up as they heard it over the sound.

Anyway I digress could a study of naval personnel records not ID anyone from the Dasher who matched a similar build/discription?

**tiger stacker** · 04-01-2010, 12:21

I feking hate Wiki but am not going to agree with John and Noreen Steele.

On 8 October 2004, a memorial service was held in Melville's honour aboard the current HMS Dasher, a patrol boat, in which Melville's role as "Major Martin" was officially recognised by the Royal Navy. At the service, Lt. Cmdr. Mark Hill, CO of the naval squadron in Cyprus, said:
"In his incarnation as Major Martin, John Melville’s memory lives on in the film, "The Man Who Never Was". But we are gathered here today to remember John Melville as a man who most certainly was".

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/worl...ver.2571668.jp

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obit...ll-Jewell.html

**No.9** · 04-01-2010, 12:44

brettarider - "could a study of naval personnel records not ID anyone from the Dasher who matched a similar build/discription?"

Over 370 men died in the Dasher explosion, and less than 10% have graves. The ID card photo is also not of much use as this was of Ronnie Reed, an MI5 B1A officer, who had a resemblance to Michael. The photo of the ficticious fiancee was of a B1A secretary.

No.9

**Charm_City** · 04-01-2010, 14:50

Originally Posted by tiger stacker

I feking hate Wiki but am not going to agree with John and Noreen Steele.

On 8 October 2004, a memorial service was held in Melville's honour aboard the current HMS Dasher, a patrol boat, in which Melville's role as "Major Martin" was officially recognised by the Royal Navy. At the service, Lt. Cmdr. Mark Hill, CO of the naval squadron in Cyprus, said:
"In his incarnation as Major Martin, John Melville’s memory lives on in the film, "The Man Who Never Was". But we are gathered here today to remember John Melville as a man who most certainly was".

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/worl...ver.2571668.jp

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obit...ll-Jewell.html

If in 2004 the RN officially recognised Melville as 'The Man Who Never Was', they have been remiss in informing the CWGC, who continue to list Glyndwr Michael as the occupant of 'Maj Martin's' grave in Huelva. See

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_...sualty=4041661

and John Melville as buried in Ardrossan. See

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_...sualty=2455332

C_C

**tiger stacker** · 04-01-2010, 14:54

Good point Charm_city am sure someone will crack this eventually

**Psypher** · 04-01-2010, 15:36

Originally Posted by No.9

Montague published the best seller 'The Man Who Never Was' in 1951, after a similar story was published in which names and other details had been changed, but nevertheless caused concern by those who knew of this secret WWII OP. Montague therefore came out with a polished, comfortable 'definitive' account which was supposed to satisfy everyone. Indeed it did for a number of years, and when the first papers were released, an identity, Glyndwr Michael, was proclaimed.

The first 'fiction' book was called Operation Heartbreak by Duff Cooper (briefly Minister of Information during the war). It was Montague that was angry about Cooper publishing 'his' story. He still had to fight tooth and nail with the Government to get the real story published.
Of course, some details had to be changed. For example regarding obtaining proof that the Germans had seen Major Martin's briefcase and contents. In reality this was confirmed through "special intelligence", i.e. the breaking of German Enigma codes.

Originally Posted by No.9

But, the more that became ‘known’, the more (what I term) Rule 96 was destabilised – essentially things began not to add up. There is little doubt that the original intended was Michael, the doubt is that this was the body ultimately used?

Two of the strongest factors, IMHO, is #1 Michael died on 28 Jan and was not put into the water until 30 April. We are therefore asked to accept that a body could be kept packed in dry ice for that period, in 1943, so as to look comparatively ‘fresh’ without uncharacteristic deterioration to a mediocre pathologist. #2 When Churchill gave the Green Light, why did Montague drive the ice casket over 400 miles from London to Greenock (West of Glasgow), to place it aboard HMS Seraph which herself was ordered to Greenock from her position in Blyth (NE of Newcastle), four days after the Dasher disaster? Seraph logged only a two hour stop at Greenock before sailing for Spain, and, Greenock is around 30 miles from Ardrossan where the bodies from Dasher were being gathered.

But it is all speculation isn't it? I could come up with an equally convincing reason why Seraph was diverted to Scotland and could probably find supporting evidence for it in the official archives.

Originally Posted by No.9

Would Montague risk the Spanish autopsy failing when there were suddenly genuinely and recently drowned seamen available? IMHO I think not.
No.9

According to the report (marked Top Secret "U") this is the advice Montague received about a Spanish autopsy:

Sir Bernard Spilsbury was consulted on the subject of corpses. He advised that if the body of a man who had died from suitable causes were washed ashore in Spain, no one could tell, without elaborate post mortem, that he had not died in an air crash. Spaniards were bad pathologists; as Roman Catholics they had a dislike of post mortems, and thus far Montagu’s way was clear.

If the body was switched I still think it would be mentioned, even if obliquely, in the official records - especially records classified as Top Secret "U" - these were never meant to see the light of day. For example, in Operation Periwig there was no compunction about recording the proposed murder of a German POW by dropping him out of an aircraft with a faulty parachute.

Also re the "tramp". The report is carefully worded on that point. Michael is described as "a labourer of no fixed abode". Which is not quite the same thing as most people these days would consider a tramp to be.

Basically what I'm trying to drive at is, although the Dasher theory sounds plausible and sensible, at the end of the day it is conjecture and should not be taken as the official version of events. Until it can be proved otherwise then the official version should be based on the available supporting evidence.

We have documentary evidence from the highest level that says Major Martin was Michael, with absolutely no hint that the body was switched at the eleventh hour.

**Psypher** · 04-01-2010, 15:40

Originally Posted by No.9

brettarider - "could a study of naval personnel records not ID anyone from the Dasher who matched a similar build/discription?"

Over 370 men died in the Dasher explosion, and less than 10% have graves. The ID card photo is also not of much use as this was of Ronnie Reed, an MI5 B1A officer, who had a resemblance to Michael. The photo of the ficticious fiancee was of a B1A secretary.

No.9

I guess the one way to decide this, if still technically possible, would be to do a DNA test on Major Martin's remains and to compare it to those of the Dasher NOK. Although at the end of the day it really doesn't matter who the real Major Martin was. And in some respects we shouldn't even be trying to find out.

**ugly** · 04-01-2010, 18:50

Agreed but all mysteries become intriguing don't they?

**No.9** · 05-01-2010, 09:04

PsyWar.Org - "The first 'fiction' book was called Operation Heartbreak by Duff Cooper (briefly Minister of Information during the war). It was Montague that was angry about Cooper publishing 'his' story."

Bit more than briefly Minister of Information. Cooper was head of the Security Executive, Security Service, (MI5 as distinct from the Secret Intelligence Service i.e. Menzies, 'C', MI6), and the one who briefed Churchill on MINCEMEAT and other B1A projects.

”But it is all speculation isn't it? I could come up with an equally convincing reason why Seraph was diverted to Scotland and could probably find supporting evidence for it in the official archives.”

The floor is yours

. I agree there should be matter-of-fact orders and logs stating why Seraph was ordered to Greenock for a two hour dock. There should be a plausible explanation for why Montagu drove 430 miles north when Blyth is 130 miles nearer, and equally why Seraph couldn’t just sail south to pick-up the body. I just haven’t found any offered?

”If the body was switched I still think it would be mentioned, even if obliquely, in the official records - especially records classified as Top Secret "U" - these were never meant to see the light of day.”

Even those from the XX Committee? To re-cap, The 20 Committee of Intelligence Services received sanction by Churchill in the furore of 1940 when Churchill authorised/initiated a great deal. Though Churchill might dabble where his mind took him, he didn’t micro mange all round (he couldn’t) and like so many other units it was ‘you know what I want, get on with it’. The 20 Committee dealt broadly with information fed to enemy agents which had been ‘turned’ – hence ‘20’ or ‘XX’ or ‘double cross’. Running the agents remained with MI5 B1A and sometimes MI6. Everything here was top top secret as was deciding what information should be fed to the Germans. To make things work some had to be genuine of course.

Such things cut across all aspects of life and command, and judged too delicate for even such as the Chiefs of Staff Joint Intelligence Sub-Committee. So in Jan ‘41, with discrete nods and winks and no official political or military sanction, the W Board formed. It comprised the Directors of Service Intel of the Army, Navy and Air Force, and a delegate from MI5 and MI6. Secretary to the Board was Ewen Montagu, who was also the Naval rep on 20 Comm. After some debate the Chairman of the Home Defence Exec was invited to join. Not only was this a ‘Holy of Holy’s’ among the highest secret circles, it ”reported to no one and was answerable to no one”. To quote Air Commodore Boyle at the first meeting; ”….the 20 Committee and the W Board would have to do some ‘odd things’ of the kind that it was the job of the Directors of Intelligence to authorise on their own responsibility”

”For example, in Operation Periwig there was no compunction about recording the proposed murder of a German POW by dropping him out of an aircraft with a faulty parachute.”

Fair point and point taken, but, it’s one thing to record you appropriated and deported the body or a dead British serviceman without consulting his NoK, and another to declare you’re deliberately going to kill an enemy in wartime?

”Also re the "tramp". The report is carefully worded on that point. Michael is described as "a labourer of no fixed abode". Which is not quite the same thing as most people these days would consider a tramp to be.”

There’s one overwhelming fact about Michael, no one was going to miss him.

”We have documentary evidence from the highest level that says Major Martin was Michael, with absolutely no hint that the body was switched at the eleventh hour.”

Sorry to continue as a Devil’s Advocate, but the body is not referred to as Michael after Michael is stated as the body acquired on 04 Feb as reported to 20 Comm? And, for example, we have the Abwehr communiqué stating; ”The corpse had died from swallowing seawater and had been dead for 5-8 days.” IWM AL 1634/1
Michael didn't drown, and didn't even die of pneumonia???

Colin Gibbon concluded it was Dasher seaman Martin on two assumptions – and erroneously IMHO. #1. When he went to visit the Dasher graves in Scotland, he found one of the dozen or so named graves, (that’s all there are), was that of 24 year old seaman Thomas J Martin. I appreciate a lot of policemen like to think they can out-Sherlock Sherlock, in the real world however, they struggle to match Lestrade. Why? Montague advised 20 Comm they had a body, Michael, at their meeting of 04 Feb. With a body they set about kiting it out and sorting the fake ID and background. One of the first things they came up with, judging by any account you read, was the name William Martin. Ergo, the name and paperwork were in place well BEFORE the Dasher blew-up on 27 March and a real ‘seaman Martin was killed. #2. In another book Montague wrote, ‘Beyond Top Secret U’, he (not in this context) mentions a Navy ‘friend’ John Martin. Gibbon said he examined the Naval roll and the only one was serving in NE England and couldn’t have been known to Montagu. Hence this is probably a ‘memorial’ reference to Martin??? Hmmm………Sherlock’s pipe cleaner, must try harder

I wouldn’t care to say whose body was used as I haven’t read the Dasher book yet – it’s ordered. However, I remain confident it was a seaman from the Dasher ;)

No.9