Thread: A "what if...?" Going 'Sri Lankan' in Ulster

ISTR that the British Troops came in to protect the Catholic/Nationalist population & were welcomed when they came. It was only later that, having been party to the discrimination against this community, things went pear shaped.

It has also been argued that if a County Infantry Bn had been on duty on Bloody Sunday rather than the Parachute Regiment the killings would not have happened as the former would have been more likely to have taken a less aggressive stance.

Originally Posted by foxs_marine

Originally Posted by Schleswig-Holstein

One of my PhD students is a Dub and his dad was in the predecessor to the Irish reserve defence force (CFA?) back in the 1960s/70s.

He said that during the time of Bloody Sunday, his dad and oppos were mobilised and were heading for Derry (sh!ting themselves he is keen to add), until they were turned around ca. 20 miles or so from the border.

Anyone know if this actually happened?

I seem to recall seeing on a documentary (poss. one of Peter Taylor's)that Irish PM Jack Lynch mobilised Irish Army medical units to positions just inside the border (on the Eire side obviously). Can any reader confirm this?

Ah! prior to joining my lab, the lad was a paramedic. I'll see if his dad was a medic. That might explain it.

Originally Posted by CaptainPlume

ISTR that the British Troops came in to protect the Catholic/Nationalist population & were welcomed when they came. It was only later that, having been party to the discrimination against this community, things went pear shaped.

It has also been argued that if a County Infantry Bn had been on duty on Bloody Sunday rather than the Parachute Regiment the killings would not have happened as the former would have been more likely to have taken a less aggressive stance.

I was with some of the earliest troops on deployment to NI. We were welcomed, and feted by the Greens. The problems didn't arise from being party to any discrimination, it arose from political machinations from PIRA and a desire to de-stabilise in order to ratify. Prior to 1969 Belfast was a plum posting. I did a spell at Palace Barracks and it was excellent. Post 69 the politicos got into the act, and the Provos grew from a very small gang to a much larger one.

As for Bloody Sunday; there was a county regiment there. The Royal Greenjackets were deployed. Neither they nor the Paras started the shooting. McGuiness did.

Originally Posted by old_fat_and_hairy

I was with some of the earliest troops on deployment to NI. We were welcomed, and feted by the Greens. The problems didn't arise from being party to any discrimination, it arose from political machinations from PIRA and a desire to de-stabilise in order to ratify. Prior to 1969 Belfast was a plum posting. I did a spell at Palace Barracks and it was excellent. Post 69 the politicos got into the act, and the Provos grew from a very small gang to a much larger one.

As for Bloody Sunday; there was a county regiment there. The Royal Greenjackets were deployed. Neither they nor the Paras started the shooting. McGuiness did.

Thought I was right at least on the reason for the deployment. As I wasn't there at the time I won't comment on the other parts of my post & bow to your knowledge.

I come from an Irish Catholic background but was also proud to be a British Army Officer, so it always amused me when I referred to "Londonderry" in front of my Mother & Grandmother. My Mother (completely Anglicised) corrected me saying it was "Derry". My Grandmother (God rest her) as Irish as Irish can be said, "don't be silly it's Londonderry."

Originally Posted by CaptainPlume

Originally Posted by old_fat_and_hairy

I was with some of the earliest troops on deployment to NI. We were welcomed, and feted by the Greens. The problems didn't arise from being party to any discrimination, it arose from political machinations from PIRA and a desire to de-stabilise in order to ratify. Prior to 1969 Belfast was a plum posting. I did a spell at Palace Barracks and it was excellent. Post 69 the politicos got into the act, and the Provos grew from a very small gang to a much larger one.

As for Bloody Sunday; there was a county regiment there. The Royal Greenjackets were deployed. Neither they nor the Paras started the shooting. McGuiness did.

Thought I was right at least on the reason for the deployment. As I wasn't there at the time I won't comment on the other parts of my post & bow to your knowledge.

I come from an Irish Catholic background but was also proud to be a British Army Officer, so it always amused me when I referred to "Londonderry" in front of my Mother & Grandmother. My Mother (completely Anglicised) corrected me saying it was "Derry". My Grandmother (God rest her) as Irish as Irish can be said, "don't be silly it's Londonderry."

My background is similar. Irish Catholic with a bit of French thrown in. Related to a singing group, what is known in modern terms as a 'popular beat combo' with some gorgeous girls and one bloke.
Father's side of family stopped speaking to me post 69, and there was an occasion in Newry when an uncle was very abusive to me, having recognised me.

Originally Posted by old_fat_and_hairy

My background is similar. Irish Catholic with a bit of French thrown in. Related to a singing group, what is known in modern terms as a 'popular beat combo' with some gorgeous girls and one bloke.
Father's side of family stopped speaking to me post 69, and there was an occasion in Newry when an uncle was very abusive to me, having recognised me.

Thank God I never had any French in me, although during my serving days I kept it very quiet that my Mother’s maiden name (think an Irish version of a legendary American folk/rock singer) is on the Arc de Triomphe as members of the family fought for Napoleon!

I will always also remember being on exercise with my First Regiment, an Irish one, when at a Squadron smoker the boys started singing “Feck the Pope� songs. I turned to the SSM & said my Grandmother would be horrified on hearing this. He asked why & when I explained she was a Catholic he said words to the effect of, “for Jaysus sake keep quiet, sorr, so’s my Grandmother & the lads would have us if they knew!� Always wondered why the Catholics were given long leave around Boyne day…

Edit to add - the only way I could have made the family more proud was if I had joined the Irish Guards rather than the Cav!

Originally Posted by flamingo

What Vonshot said.

They were constrained by a few issues, the main one being that proof is required in courts. The same constraints applied in the North.

The only proof required in courts in the South were the sworn statement of a member of the Gardai (SGT and above I believe but am not certain) and that constituted grounds for a guilty verdict and prison sentence for membership of the IRA. I know that a great deal more was required to gain convictions in the North.

Whilst I don't believe that the Irish Government was any more complicit in the activities of the IRA (of all varieties)/INLA etc than the British Government was complicit in collusion with the (so-called) Loyalist terrorists (i.e. not at all), I recall the border being more tightly controlled during the BSE scare in the 90s than at any other time I served there (70s-late 90s). There were more troops and Gardai on the ground to prevent the illegal movement of cattle than at any other point during the Troubles to prevent the movement of terrorists.

Originally Posted by Trotsky

If we would have been prepared to fight in the way you suggest...... i think wiping out the souths defences would have been a daytrip for the armed forces in the 70's ........ might as well go the whole hog if the south are supporting the IRA!

trotsky

I think the Armed Forces of 2009 would struggle to be honest!

Originally Posted by tropper66

Originally Posted by Vonshot

Originally Posted by tropper66

There was a rumour going around that some of PIRA where trained by the yanks

As per the comment above

In 1970 there were rumours going around 8 Brigade ops room that a number of likley lads where being trained by the South's inteligence unit in county Donegal, shortly after this PIRA raised its ugly head, It was said the South did not want OIRA, A marxist mob , to be involved in the North. You must remember that OIRA had been purged in the South in the 1920s by De-Valera

This is becoming tedious, hearsay for god’s sake, do you believe every rumour you hear? There were a few recently about Sadam, WMD and Al Quieda for example....turned out to be bullsh1t but never let that get in teh way of a good yarn at the bar

Regarding your post about NORAID and funding? this biggest contributor to PIRA's coffers was the NI housing executive and tax exemptions certificates, throw in some red diesel, growth hormones and videos and that was the real bulk of funding. NORAID was a political flag of legitimacy to fly "look how much the Yanks support us" in fact PIRA could get along quite comfortably without any US tin rattling

Seriously Trooper 66, there are some great sources to get an accurate picture of reality and not rumour, prejudiced assumptions or hearsay. Peter Taylors Provo's, Loyalists and Brits and especially Martin Dillion for a start, The Enemy within and the Dirty war are an excellent start

Originally Posted by Vonshot

This is becoming tedious, hearsay for god’s sake, do you believe every rumour you hear? There were a few recently about Sadam, WMD and Al Quieda for example....turned out to be bullsh1t but never let that get in teh way of a good yarn at the bar

I think that people on both sides of the debate tend to pervert history to make their point.

Throughout the Troubles the Government of the Republic blew hot and cold over support to the IRA.

This support could never be seen as active, that would have been a Diplomatic nightmare. As a result it was more what they did not do rather than what they did.

The most overt support to terrorism was given by the Judiciary during the years that they skewed deportation requests and in the case of a well known Londonderry PIRA terrorist refusing to convict of Membership, as the Judge could not believe he was in PIRA.

Originally Posted by western

Originally Posted by Vonshot

This is becoming tedious, hearsay for god’s sake, do you believe every rumour you hear? There were a few recently about Sadam, WMD and Al Quieda for example....turned out to be bullsh1t but never let that get in teh way of a good yarn at the bar

I think that people on both sides of the debate tend to pervert history to make their point.

Throughout the Troubles the Government of the Republic blew hot and cold over support to the IRA
This support could never be seen as active, that would have been a Diplomatic nightmare. As a result it was more what they did not do rather than what they did.

The most overt support to terrorism was given by the Judiciary during the years that they skewed deportation requests and in the case of a well known Londonderry PIRA terrorist refusing to convict of Membership, as the Judge could not believe he was in PIRA.

If we take the same logic the same can be said of HMG's support for Loyalists? to be frank I think that assumption is as groundless as the one regarding the South and PIRA. I do think however certain actors will have spun or directed events or situations for other ends, SIS and Kincora for example.

I cant agree with the statement "support to terrorism" a highly contentious statement. Is the UK judiciary supporting terrorism by not handing out stiffer sentences to animal rights activists or Luton Muslims by not convicting them when they stage inflamatory demo's? Its always easier if we are the judges ourselves

Originally Posted by Vonshot

Originally Posted by tropper66

Originally Posted by Vonshot

Originally Posted by tropper66

There was a rumour going around that some of PIRA where trained by the yanks

As per the comment above

In 1970 there were rumours going around 8 Brigade ops room that a number of likley lads where being trained by the South's inteligence unit in county Donegal, shortly after this PIRA raised its ugly head, It was said the South did not want OIRA, A marxist mob , to be involved in the North. You must remember that OIRA had been purged in the South in the 1920s by De-Valera

This is becoming tedious, hearsay for god’s sake, do you believe every rumour you hear? There were a few recently about Sadam, WMD and Al Quieda for example....turned out to be bullsh1t but never let that get in teh way of a good yarn at the bar

Regarding your post about NORAID and funding? this biggest contributor to PIRA's coffers was the NI housing executive and tax exemptions certificates, throw in some red diesel, growth hormones and videos and that was the real bulk of funding. NORAID was a political flag of legitimacy to fly "look how much the Yanks support us" in fact PIRA could get along quite comfortably without any US tin rattling

Seriously Trooper 66, there are some great sources to get an accurate picture of reality and not rumour, prejudiced assumptions or hearsay. Peter Taylors Provo's, Loyalists and Brits and especially Martin Dillion for a start, The Enemy within and the Dirty war are an excellent start

At the time I was sleeping on the floor of the brigade majors office a couple of nights a week as duty aircrew.not reading it out of a book

Originally Posted by tropper66

Originally Posted by Vonshot

Originally Posted by tropper66

Originally Posted by Vonshot

Originally Posted by tropper66

There was a rumour going around that some of PIRA where trained by the yanks

As per the comment above

In 1970 there were rumours going around 8 Brigade ops room that a number of likley lads where being trained by the South's inteligence unit in county Donegal, shortly after this PIRA raised its ugly head, It was said the South did not want OIRA, A marxist mob , to be involved in the North. You must remember that OIRA had been purged in the South in the 1920s by De-Valera

This is becoming tedious, hearsay for god’s sake, do you believe every rumour you hear? There were a few recently about Sadam, WMD and Al Quieda for example....turned out to be bullsh1t but never let that get in teh way of a good yarn at the bar

Regarding your post about NORAID and funding? this biggest contributor to PIRA's coffers was the NI housing executive and tax exemptions certificates, throw in some red diesel, growth hormones and videos and that was the real bulk of funding. NORAID was a political flag of legitimacy to fly "look how much the Yanks support us" in fact PIRA could get along quite comfortably without any US tin rattling

Seriously Trooper 66, there are some great sources to get an accurate picture of reality and not rumour, prejudiced assumptions or hearsay. Peter Taylors Provo's, Loyalists and Brits and especially Martin Dillion for a start, The Enemy within and the Dirty war are an excellent start

At the time I was sleeping on the floor of the brigade majors office a couple of nights a week as duty aircrew.not reading it out of a book

Do you mean the "I was in the geographical area therefore dont tell me anything" argument?


Ok apart from your sleeping arrangements, you are still quoting rumour and hearsay. The view from the floor is fine but if you dont want to try and get a wider picture and do some research on multiple actors, elements and agendas all running at once for something you were involved in and are happy with the small piece of the picture you saw (honestly I am not having a go here either) then best of luck to you, dont bother reading anything, you dont need to.

Originally Posted by tropper66

Originally Posted by Vonshot

Originally Posted by tropper66

Originally Posted by Vonshot

Originally Posted by tropper66

There was a rumour going around that some of PIRA where trained by the yanks

As per the comment above

In 1970 there were rumours going around 8 Brigade ops room that a number of likley lads where being trained by the South's inteligence unit in county Donegal, shortly after this PIRA raised its ugly head, It was said the South did not want OIRA, A marxist mob , to be involved in the North. You must remember that OIRA had been purged in the South in the 1920s by De-Valera

This is becoming tedious, hearsay for god’s sake, do you believe every rumour you hear? There were a few recently about Sadam, WMD and Al Quieda for example....turned out to be bullsh1t but never let that get in teh way of a good yarn at the bar

Regarding your post about NORAID and funding? this biggest contributor to PIRA's coffers was the NI housing executive and tax exemptions certificates, throw in some red diesel, growth hormones and videos and that was the real bulk of funding. NORAID was a political flag of legitimacy to fly "look how much the Yanks support us" in fact PIRA could get along quite comfortably without any US tin rattling

Seriously Trooper 66, there are some great sources to get an accurate picture of reality and not rumour, prejudiced assumptions or hearsay. Peter Taylors Provo's, Loyalists and Brits and especially Martin Dillion for a start, The Enemy within and the Dirty war are an excellent start

At the time I was sleeping on the floor of the brigade majors office a couple of nights a week as duty aircrew.not reading it out of a book

tropper66, Vonshot wasn't there, he's only read books about it, so don't be too hard on him when speaks out of his arse. :WINK:

It was quite funny realy, the Ops room I mean, it was still fitted out as a Royal Navy Western Opproaches Ops room with a massive map of the North Atlantic on the wall with OS maps stuck to it, it was still HMS SEA EAGLE then.