Like I said Rockhopper, you appear to have problems with comprehension. Again I have not stated that Bomber Command's efforts were of no strategic value-show me where I have. I have argued the benefits of the firestorm bombings-that's all.

Syrup: I have no doubt your first language is English as you have not mis-quoted my views. Rockhopper has (twice), hence the first language jibe. Some people read what they want to read, as opposed to what is written.

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Sorry, my reference to the RAF starting it was in the context of WW2 bombing. Here's me thinking Guernica was something different!

I stand corrected about the first RAF raid on Berlin but it was the first intentional strike on built up areas belonging to either power by either of the two main protagonists at the time.

The attacks on Berlin were in NO way a 'first'. Both the Luftwaffe and RAF Bomber Command had been striking urban areas from at least May 10th, 1940 (Warsaw being an obvious earlier case).

The INTENT to bomb Germany was firmly outline in the RAF's Western Air Plans (1937). These are the pre-war airforce war plans for a strategic offensive against Germany. In these plans was the broad sweep of Bomber Command's 'Main Offensive', including "Moral", "Oil" and "transportation' sections.

As to Dresden. The politicians that supported Bomber Command's campaign were quick to wash their hands of this raid and by extention, the whole campaign at war's end.

However the very real national effort devoted to the strategic bombing of Germany, required a singular level of national political/economic support that predates the outbreak of war in certain aspects. Various authors have calculated that Britain devoted, at times like 1943-4, between 25-44% of the entire national war economy to this campaign (take your pick of author and means of calculation).

At the War's end, it was found expedient by politicians and populace, who had substantively supported Bomber Command's efforts, to deny "responsibility" and try to "forget" what had been at the time had been a popular war policy. Hence no campaign medal, for what was for almost 2/3 of the war Britain's sole means of directly attacking Germany.

Originally Posted by the_boy_syrup

In 1940 Churchill issued...

a secret memorandum to his Chiefs of Staff, ordering "an absolutely devastating, exterminating attack by very heavy bombers upon the Nazi homeland." .

This quote was actually from a a Air Ministry Doc dated March 1941 (I forget the Ref Number right now but it is in Air Ministry/ Cabinet Office archives). The Air copy has Winnie's green ink annotation stating something to the effect. "There are two kinds of Hun, the Persuadeable and the Killable" on the same memo too.

Frankland was a little dissingenious in how he quoted this, in the Official History, that has been often requoted since.

I saw my German friend last night and over a few drinks he told me that he had shown the Mail artical to a few of his German friends and they had discussed it.
All are very suspicious of the write up, for none had seen any reference in the German Press or on national websites to a German lead investigation.
They point out that no Named Author of the report is quoted or any actual Physical Organization, eg, Dr X of Dresden University.
Copies have been sent to some of their old friends back in Germany and I am waiting the reply's.
My friend did say that the Dresden authorities would have had a good idea of numbers in town, for to draw rations one had to be registered and Refugees would make this a priority.
john

I cannot comment on the truth or otherwise of the subject in hand.

However, may I recommend the novel "Slaughterhouse 5" ("Schlachthof Funf") by Kurt Vonnegut Jnr? He was a PoW in Dresden during the allied bombing.

Yes it is a novel, but itis also a highly respected classic

jonwilly - "All are very suspicious of the write up, for none had seen any reference in the German Press or on national websites to a German lead investigation. They point out that no Named Author of the report is quoted or any actual Physical Organization, eg, Dr X of Dresden University."

Sure they weren't distracting you to put you off your Abundance hand?

Have a gander here:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...581992,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...rldwar.germany

No.9

Thank You No 9.
Valuable ammunition for me in the English version of Der Spiegal I will copy and present this evidence.
I do not doubt what my German friend says when he tells me that he has not seen any reference to the Dresden artical in his subscription copy of Der Spiegal, he holds a Doctorate and worked for most of his adult life for the UN worldwide.
Many posters on this board seem to find it hard to understand the 'Guilt' complex that was rammed down the throats of the population of Germany post 45, mainly from our US friends.
The Germans I know where teenagers or even younger during WW II, so could never have influenced Herr Hitler.
I thought Gulf Two was wrong, from long before the troops where committed and yet all I ever did was winge and wine on the net.
The German national refusal to send Combat troops to Iraq or Ganistan definitely stems from the US earlier brainwashing, IMHO.
john
Guardian artical missed by me though I read the website daily. TA.

To go further down the line, as your German friend has said, a few salient names and German sources would be desirable. I’m afraid my German is pretty naff, but I hope the following may be useful?

http://www.welt.de/kultur/article712...strierung.html
http://www.dresden.de/de/02/110/03/c_015.php
http://www.dresden.de/media/pdf/info...ef_Mueller.pdf

I appreciate what you say about how to regard post-war Germans, and perhaps even harder to try and see the world from their point. Having grown-up with bombsites to play on, amputees a common encounter, and the overwhelming cause of one parent families being one parent was killed in the war, (or died soon after), my perspective was that Germans were just defeated evil. It took a long time to realise that the vast majority probably had similar circumstances to my old man. Not really political, enjoyed going out with their mates, chasing girls, hoped to get a better job, take holidays, get married, etc, till one day an envelop turned up stating they’ve been called-up. What about the millions of Germans who were against the NSDAP – who would believe them in 1945?

As a closing line in the Spiegel article states; ”So can we say "case closed"? Almost certainly not. Many Dresdeners, understandably, cling to their memories and traditions even in the face of historical evidence.” History may indeed be ‘a never ending argument’, but so many popular thumbnails belong filed under exaggerated fact or even fiction. Perhaps Nathan Jessep (Jack Nicholson) hit the nail on the head in ‘A Few Good Men’; – ”The truth? You can’t handle the truth!”

No.9

Spotted this in the TV listings

C4 Monday 16th Feb

Dresden

(2006) This award-winning film uses dramatised reconstructions to show the result of the Allied bombing which destroyed the German city of Dresden in February 1945.

Thanks for the heads-up tsb.

Reviews state; ”The attack created a firestorm that reduced the city to rubble and claimed 25,000 lives. Presented by historian Sebastian Dehnhardt, this award-winning film combines dramatised reconstructions of the two nights of bombing with eye-witness accounts from both sides.”

And; ”Sebastian Dehnhardt (Stalingrad) portrays the destruction of Dresden in the form of a "real-time" historical reportage. As the attacks of 13 and 14 February unfold chronologically before our eyes, they are counterpointed by the accounts of ten eyewitnesses – British pilots and Dresden residents, those who dropped the bombs and those who survived them. More than 300 interviews with survivors were carried out prior to filming.”

And, from the makers; ” The film provides a dramatic account of these tragic events, from the perspective of both the inhabitants of Dresden and also the British bomber pilots who mounted the air raid on the city. They were all part of a tragedy which left nobody victorious.”

The makers, Broadview, categorise it as a ‘documentary’. Interesting to note they appear to go with the ‘25K’ assessment of casualties – the upper ‘possible’ figure of the German research which established 18K as likely – instead of the wild claims of up to ½M.

Hopefully the subject has been treated as ‘matter of fact’ and not hyped along the lines of innocent Germans and evil British? The film is four years old and clear from their other productions they have not elected to also cover the German bombing of Plymouth, Southampton, Birmingham, Glasgow, London, Coventry, Liverpool, Hull, etc, etc, etc. It might be interesting to hear from those who launched the V2s, against which civilians had no warning or opportunity of protection? They did, however, make a docu about the third goal of the 1966 World Cup final – doo dah, doo dah.

No.9