Originally Posted by mick4075

Back to Wittman; there was recently a show on Discovery channel called Military Mysteries, I think. This assessed the battle and 'proved' that from the position of Mr Ekins' tank, he could only have seen,engaged and destroyed three out of the four vehicles in Wittmans platoon. The fourth was in dead ground to the Fireflys.

The fourth was hit by a Canadian tank unit. This was Wittmans Tiger as it jockeyed for cover.

From the war diary of the Schwere SS-Panzer Abteiling101/501,
"Several Canadian Shermans are knocked out. Right outside of Gaumesnil, and third platoon of A.sqn of the 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry open fire from the flank. The only Sherman Firefly knocks out five Tigers and sets them on fire,there are few survivors, SS Hauptsturmfuhrer Wittmenn and his crew are killed"
Since I got interested in Wittmann back in the 70s I have visited the site and read just about every book about this battle including the War Diarys of the units invovled,( I'm a bit OCD) Wittmann remains were not found untill 1983, and I have been to his grave in LaCambe, I have even read the letter written by Heinz von Westernhagen to Wittmann's widow, Hilde, and even have copys of there wedding photographs

Was he killed because he was getting married mid-tank battle?

Originally Posted by Dollsteeth

Was he killed because he was getting married mid-tank battle?

I believe it was a cold night.............

Originally Posted by tropper66

Originally Posted by Dollsteeth

Slightly off topic but i wasnt aware anyone was credited directly with Killing Wittman though I stand to be corrected.

It is now pretty certain the Mr Ekins was the Gunner of the Firefly that took out Wittman, and there are a number of German Referances that say so,Michael Wittmann by Patirick Agte, Meyers History of the 12th SS panzer Division

OT I know but it seems more certain to have been Canadians that did this. History Channel prog, IIRC.

Originally Posted by Bravo_Bravo

Originally Posted by tropper66

Originally Posted by Dollsteeth

Slightly off topic but i wasnt aware anyone was credited directly with Killing Wittman though I stand to be corrected.

It is now pretty certain the Mr Ekins was the Gunner of the Firefly that took out Wittman, and there are a number of German Referances that say so,Michael Wittmann by Patirick Agte, Meyers History of the 12th SS panzer Division

OT I know but it seems more certain to have been Canadians that did this. History Channel prog, IIRC.

I watched that and it make it seem pretty conclusive that a Canuck Sherman took a pot shot from behind a wall in the grounds of a chateau and his Wittman's tank (which British troops burned down later by mistake so is no longer there.) The range, angle etc where all quite conclusive.......except for the fact that the presenter is Canadian and the series could alos be called 'Candians won all the wars for everyone, despite what you heard/know.' ie it may be tad biased.

anyway that chick from the one show is fit isn't she? phhhwoorrr. I'd like to get her out in a wheat field and get in the sights of my 17 pounder so I would.

Originally Posted by Mr_Deputy

Originally Posted by Bravo_Bravo

Originally Posted by tropper66

Originally Posted by Dollsteeth

Slightly off topic but i wasnt aware anyone was credited directly with Killing Wittman though I stand to be corrected.

It is now pretty certain the Mr Ekins was the Gunner of the Firefly that took out Wittman, and there are a number of German Referances that say so,Michael Wittmann by Patirick Agte, Meyers History of the 12th SS panzer Division

OT I know but it seems more certain to have been Canadians that did this. History Channel prog, IIRC.

I watched that and it make it seem pretty conclusive that a Canuck Sherman took a pot shot from behind a wall in the grounds of a chateau and his Wittman's tank (which British troops burned down later by mistake so is no longer there.) The range, angle etc where all quite conclusive.......except for the fact that the presenter is Canadian and the series could alos be called 'Candians won all the wars for everyone, despite what you heard/know.' ie it may be tad biased.

anyway that chick from the one show is fit isn't she? phhhwoorrr. I'd like to get her out in a wheat field and get in the sights of my 17 pounder so I would.

But the German eye witnesses who are not trying to big themselves up dissagree in the letters by Dr Rabe and Von Westernhagen to Wittmann's wife, Hilde, and the war diary of the 101/501 say it was the Northamptonshire Yeomanry that knocked out Tiger 007, which was a command tank and not Wittmann's normal ride as he did not like there lower amount ofammunition

And the MTP was worn by blokes from 7 Rifles.

Originally Posted by tropper66

Originally Posted by Mr_Deputy

Originally Posted by Bravo_Bravo

Originally Posted by tropper66

Originally Posted by Dollsteeth

Slightly off topic but i wasnt aware anyone was credited directly with Killing Wittman though I stand to be corrected.

It is now pretty certain the Mr Ekins was the Gunner of the Firefly that took out Wittman, and there are a number of German Referances that say so,Michael Wittmann by Patirick Agte, Meyers History of the 12th SS panzer Division

OT I know but it seems more certain to have been Canadians that did this. History Channel prog, IIRC.

I watched that and it make it seem pretty conclusive that a Canuck Sherman took a pot shot from behind a wall in the grounds of a chateau and his Wittman's tank (which British troops burned down later by mistake so is no longer there.) The range, angle etc where all quite conclusive.......except for the fact that the presenter is Canadian and the series could alos be called 'Candians won all the wars for everyone, despite what you heard/know.' ie it may be tad biased.

anyway that chick from the one show is fit isn't she? phhhwoorrr. I'd like to get her out in a wheat field and get in the sights of my 17 pounder so I would.

But the German eye witnesses who are not trying to big themselves up dissagree in the letters by Dr Rabe and Von Westernhagen to Wittmann's wife, Hilde, and the war diary of the 101/501 say it was the Northamptonshire Yeomanry that knocked out Tiger 007, which was a command tank and not Wittmann's normal ride as he did not like there lower amount ofammunition

I know nothing. Just spouting the facts from the documentary. (Excuse my awful grammar was busy when I wrote it.)
Seems they were aware of Northants tanks but Canadians were in a kind of flanking position, firing on the German tanks, unknown to most units on both sides and that they were much closer and one of their arguments is that the Northants gunners were at the very limit of their range so could not really have been able to be sure enough to claim kills or not - although from the British claims it seems they were very sure about their hits. No doubts. It seems there was alot of confusion.
Even to the extent where the Canucks maybe 'technically' or 'by the book' shouldn't have been where they were as they were risking 'blue on blue' at extreme range. So may have kept a little quiet about it at the time to avoid trouble.

Originally Posted by Mr_Deputy

Originally Posted by tropper66

Originally Posted by Mr_Deputy

Originally Posted by Bravo_Bravo

Originally Posted by tropper66

Originally Posted by Dollsteeth

Slightly off topic but i wasnt aware anyone was credited directly with Killing Wittman though I stand to be corrected.

It is now pretty certain the Mr Ekins was the Gunner of the Firefly that took out Wittman, and there are a number of German Referances that say so,Michael Wittmann by Patirick Agte, Meyers History of the 12th SS panzer Division

OT I know but it seems more certain to have been Canadians that did this. History Channel prog, IIRC.

I watched that and it make it seem pretty conclusive that a Canuck Sherman took a pot shot from behind a wall in the grounds of a chateau and his Wittman's tank (which British troops burned down later by mistake so is no longer there.) The range, angle etc where all quite conclusive.......except for the fact that the presenter is Canadian and the series could alos be called 'Candians won all the wars for everyone, despite what you heard/know.' ie it may be tad biased.

anyway that chick from the one show is fit isn't she? phhhwoorrr. I'd like to get her out in a wheat field and get in the sights of my 17 pounder so I would.

But the German eye witnesses who are not trying to big themselves up dissagree in the letters by Dr Rabe and Von Westernhagen to Wittmann's wife, Hilde, and the war diary of the 101/501 say it was the Northamptonshire Yeomanry that knocked out Tiger 007, which was a command tank and not Wittmann's normal ride as he did not like there lower amount ofammunition

I know nothing. Just spouting the facts from the documentary. (Excuse my awful grammar was busy when I wrote it.)
Seems they were aware of Northants tanks but Canadians were in a kind of flanking position, firing on the German tanks, unknown to most units on both sides and that they were much closer and one of their arguments is that the Northants gunners were at the very limit of their range so could not really have been able to be sure enough to claim kills or not - although from the British claims it seems they were very sure about their hits. No doubts. It seems there was alot of confusion.
Even to the extent where the Canucks maybe 'technically' or 'by the book' shouldn't have been where they were as they were risking 'blue on blue' at extreme range. So may have kept a little quiet about it at the time to avoid trouble.

You would be amazed at how many very good books about tank warfare have massive mistakes in them,when you read the other sides account of the same action, the amount of British and American authors who state they were in action with Tigers,when in fact there were no Tigers within miles of them. The Americans who say they were shot down by Zeros in the Phillipines and Burma in 41/2, there were no zeros there, or all the Germans who were shot down by Spitfires in areas where there were none, some of the best historians have made these mistakes, its nothing new

Couple of marines cutting about at bordon in MTP.
I think we may have missed a trick here, it looks just like C95, the dont seem to have changed the material either. I thought we were getting something more hardwearing