Originally Posted by badal

Originally Posted by DarkBlueLoggie

Originally Posted by re-stilly

National Service is allowed I believe the BAOR one is a commemorative medal struck by Award

BFG Medal

Neither should be worn - the previous thread which was binned went into great length about the regulations covering this.

I noticed both these medals were worn at WOOTTON BASSETT by veterans carrying standards welcoming home 5 dead soldiers recently. How come no one from the RBL or other veteran associations told them they were not allowed to wear these medals?

In fact does anyone know how many veterans have ever been evicted from a remembrance parade for wearing these or any other unofficial medals purchased from e/bay or medal dealers?

So much for these so called regulations that cannot be enforced on veterans who are not employed in crown services.

Supposedly (this from a poster on the other thread) the RBL have instructed standard bearers only to wear issued medals. Unfortunately the RBL rather opened the floodgates with the 'National Service Medal' so I imagine must find themselves in a difficult position now.

I refer you to JSP 761.

WEARING OF MEDALS
18. Only those medals awarded to the individual are to be worn.

...

WEARING OF MEDALS AFTER LEAVING THE SERVICE

20. While on leaving the Service personnel cease to be bound by these instructions, they are expected to conform to the general instructions published in the London Gazette and in particular not to add any order, decoration, medal or emblem to which they are not verifiably entitled or which has not been approved for acceptance and wear. The wearing of unauthorised awards is a grave discourtesy to Her Majesty The Queen.

And from BRd 81 - OK it's Naval Service but it probably reflect across the other 2 services:

0817. Wearing of Unofficial Medals

a. Only those Honours, Decorations, Medals and Awards that have been formally approved by the Sovereign may be worn. This applies to the wearing in uniform and civilian clothing, and by retired members of the Armed Services. Commanding Officers are responsible for ensuring that individuals do not wear medals that are not approved or to which they are not entitled, as well as being responsible for ensuring individuals are in possession of medals to which they are entitled.

b. A number of private companies market unofficial commemorative medals and although there is no reason why individuals may not purchase these items they are still formally classified as unofficial and have not been given approval by the Sovereign, and thus may not been worn. The fact that an advertisement for such medals appears in “in house” Service magazines is not to be taken as an indication that a medal has been formally approved and may be worn.

c. Any queries on the status of any medal, or of an individuals entitlement to it, should, in the first instance, be made to single-Service medal offices.

Originally Posted by badal

Originally Posted by DarkBlueLoggie

Originally Posted by re-stilly

National Service is allowed I believe the BAOR one is a commemorative medal struck by Award

BFG Medal

Neither should be worn - the previous thread which was binned went into great length about the regulations covering this.

I noticed both these medals were worn at WOOTTON BASSETT by veterans carrying standards welcoming home 5 dead soldiers recently. How come no one from the RBL or other veteran associations told them they were not allowed to wear these medals?

Because we are generally too polite. RBL rules say their standard bearers should not wear bling (or even the vet's badge) but that is up to RBL office bearers to enforce.

In fact does anyone know how many veterans have ever been evicted from a remembrance parade for wearing these or any other unofficial medals purchased from e/bay or medal dealers?

As a parade commander, I would not (have not) evict a vet for wearing a bling medal. I have evicted and raised to the CoC a cadet AI for so doing. I would, if I had any way of knowing, evict a vet (or anyone else) for wearing (LHS) an official medal they are not entitled to. The knowledge is the problem for the latter - remembering that the parade is to honour the vets and their fallen comrades.

So much for these so called regulations that cannot be enforced on veterans who are not employed in crown services.

And where, with the passing into retirement of the Army Act 1955 s197(1), are we going to get the authority?

Originally Posted by DarkBlueLoggie

Supposedly (this from a poster on the other thread) the RBL have instructed standard bearers only to wear issued medals. Unfortunately the RBL rather opened the floodgates with the 'National Service Medal' so I imagine must find themselves in a difficult position now.

I was that poster and here is the reference:

Unofficial medals, sometimes called "bling medals", are those not awarded by, or approved for wear by, the Sovereign. The official Legion position is that they should not be worn by Standard Bearers and others are discouraged from wearing them.

The following is the relevant extract from the Legion's Handbook for Ceremonial and Services:

"The official rules for wearing medals allow only official awards to be worn. Unofficial purchased medals and foreign medals which do not have the Sovereign's permission to be worn are not allowed. Standard Bearers, Parade Marshals and other officials on Legion duty are bound by this ruling and unofficial medals must not be worn when on Legion duty."

That said, there is a strong element who wear these medals anyway, and the custom has arisen that they are worn below the official row on the left breast in such a way that they are clearly unofficial. Of course where there is no official row this is inclined to make them appear official, and this detracts from official medals worn with the Queen's permission.

The Army reference re unofficial medals is AGAIs Vol 2 Ch 68:

68.003. Wearing Insignia of Awards (see QR(Army) para J10.017). Regulations on the wearing of the insignia of entitled awards are contained in Dress Regulations for Officers 1995 (Army Code No 61075) and The Defence Supply Chain Manual (JSP 336), Volume 12, Part 3, Pamphlet 10. Service personnel may only wear, on uniform or civilian clothes, Medals that have been awarded to them or approved for them to wear by HM The Queen. Crown servants in uniform may not wear any Medal or Decoration whose wear has not been authorised by HM The Queen. This includes foreign Medals and Decorations and unofficial Medals that are sold by medal dealers and manufacturers. The latter class includes unofficial Medals such as the “National Service Medal”, “Hong Kong Service Medal”, “BAOR Medal”, “Voluntary Service Medal”, “General Service Cross”, “Combatant Service Medal”, “Eastern Service Medal”, “Peace Medal” and the “Suez Zone Medal”. The responsibility for the correct wearing of Medals by Service personnel lies with the chain of command.

For the Forces I agree. Bit its a bit hard to enforce with civvys. As nobody seems to care but it does make the argument stronger for official recognition. It wont stop the bling as some Veterans will have got used to wearing the dreaded stuff.

Originally Posted by CAARPS

Originally Posted by Stu281

Originally Posted by re-stilly

Originally Posted by Stu281

I agree but in reality what difference does it make. Its no big thing to do. Were you one of the lucky guys who deployed to the Falklands after the so called event. Because if not I was. BFFI lost 6 people in my 5 months this included 1 phantom and 1 lynx both the crews where lost. But there you go good its good to be a civvy.

Where do you draw the line 1, 2, 10, 15, 50, 70 years because if that is the case wouldn't guys in BFG get a medal as they are the descendants of the forces that took down Hitler and guys still get killed on exercise out there.

Don't think that is a good idea.

Stilly where you suprised by the ebay badge. You see My man anybody can get one. I think the NDM would stamp out WALTS to a degree. It would be in the criteria which would only apply to serving and ex servive. Regards

Erm a bit like the veterans badge :D :D

Not so

Originally Posted by Stu281

Originally Posted by CAARPS

Originally Posted by Stu281

Stilly where you suprised by the ebay badge. You see My man anybody can get one. I think the NDM would stamp out WALTS to a degree. It would be in the criteria which would only apply to serving and ex servive. Regards

Erm a bit like the veterans badge :D :D

Not so

To be honest, we are looking at two completely different points here:

1. Would issue of an NDM reduce the perceived need for ex-serving people to buy (actually, do we give a flying f^ck what they spend their own money on?) or, more importantly, wear "bling" medals?

There are clearly different opinions about this but, looking at the vets on my Remembrance Parade, with a fair amount of bling showing, there was a mix of GSMs, SAMs, LS&GC and more recent medals - I wasn't aware of anybody with bling and nothing legit. So, probably not to the extent Stu and the other proponents believe.

2. Would an NDM prevent (or even hinder) never-served (or, never made it out of basic) walts from wearing medals?

Clearly not - medals will continue to be available from eBay (even if you change UK law, from foreign sellers), from reputable medal dealers for collectors and as "replacement" medals - I don't see the MOD taking the brave decision to close down all of the existing reproduction medal dealers or, even, wanting to take on the additional burden at the Medal Office for replacement medals for no-longer serving personnel who have them knocked, burned or just manage to drop them down the back of the sofa.

DarkBlueLoggie: 'I refer you to JSP 761.'

WEARING OF MEDALS AFTER LEAVING THE SERVICE

20. While on leaving the Service personnel cease to be bound by these instructions, they are expected to conform to the general instructions published in the London Gazette and in particular not to add any order, decoration, medal or emblem to which they are not verifiably entitled or which has not been approved for acceptance and wear. The wearing of unauthorised awards is a grave discourtesy to Her Majesty The Queen.


This is the usual hypocritical nonsense which could only come from some idiot in the MOD.

How can one cease to be bound by medal wearing instructions having left HM Armed Forces and at the same time be expected to conform to them on veterans (civilian ) parades?

Question for you DarkBlueLoggie:

Do you know any veteran Navy, Army, or Air Force association in the UK that has a written rule within its constitution that forbids members to wear unofficial commemoratives on remembrance parades?

Originally Posted by badal

WEARING OF MEDALS AFTER LEAVING THE SERVICE

20. While on leaving the Service personnel cease to be bound by these instructions, they are expected to conform to the general instructions published in the London Gazette and in particular not to add any order, decoration, medal or emblem to which they are not verifiably entitled or which has not been approved for acceptance and wear. The wearing of unauthorised awards is a grave discourtesy to Her Majesty The Queen.


This is the usual hypocritical nonsense which could only come from some idiot in the MOD.

How can one cease to be bound by medal wearing instructions having left HM Armed Forces and at the same time be expected to conform to them on veterans (civilian ) parades?

Because medals are issued in accordance with a Royal Warrant and you are still a subject of Her Majesty? You are no longer bound by military dress regulations but that is a separate issue.

Originally Posted by Idrach

Because medals are issued in accordance with a Royal Warrant and you are still a subject of Her Majesty? You are no longer bound by military dress regulations but that is a separate issue.

Sorry Idrach, you are living in a bygone age. Go and look at your passport, all citizens of the UK are citizens today (even ex-service personnel) not subjects.

Originally Posted by badal

Originally Posted by Idrach

Because medals are issued in accordance with a Royal Warrant and you are still a subject of Her Majesty? You are no longer bound by military dress regulations but that is a separate issue.

Sorry Idrach, you are living in a bygone age. Go and look at your passport, all citizens of the UK are citizens today (even ex-service personnel) not subjects.

You are missing the point.

You are both a citizen of the United Kingdom and still a subject of her Majesty. The British Nationality Act 1981 just changed the categories of entitlement to UK residency. Citizens of Canada, Jersey, the Isle of Man etc are also subjects of Her Majesty (even though they may refer to her by different titles - e.g. Lord of Mann, Duke of Normandy etc).

Idrach, How come no veterans have been kicked off parades for wearing these unofficial commemorative medals many of them sponsored by the RBL?