Thread: DInf Policy on Conduct of Training with Blank and Pyro

Sorry if this has been done already, but anyone else read the memo that came out last October ref the above?

If not, and you are an officer/NCO...read on...

The long and the short of it is that according to PAM 21, in order to "plan, conduct and act as an exercise assistant during exercises involving blank ammunition and pyrotechnics" you need to be qualified as SA (A), (C), (D) or (E).

What does this mean for the TA?...
Well, unlike regular officers, the TA commissioing course does not include a live range qualification. So, unless you've done PCBC (with LFTT), you're scuppered. The TA RMQ(1-3) qualification only gives you a SA (B) tick in the box, so still no blank/pyro.

Likewise for TA NCOs, and until the implementation of the new All-Arms SAA instructors course (some time this year), existing instructors are only qualified as SA(K) - again no blank/pyro tick.

Yeah, yeah..yadda yadda - rules meant for the blind obedience of idiots etc...
Unfortunately, in our current risk-averse culture, this is likely to become more of an issue. If you haven't got anyone in your sub-unit with a qualification, you simply won't be able to conduct the training - end of story.

Now the implication is that for any TA officer/NCO to "plan conduct or act as an exercise assistant" (which in my mind, is pretty fundamental to sub-units in the TA), they will either need to attend the new PCTC, the new AA SAA instr cse, or the All-Arms Basic Close Combat Skills (AABCCS) instr cse.


...now I'll stand by for a broadside of replies telling me to get with the times and just do the courses, but isn't anyone else just a little cynical of the current 'course' mentality that seems to becoming the norm these days?
...and don't even get me started on the latest 10-days Landrover Fam training issue...

I believe a course is being drawn up SA(M)(90), this would be a five days course for all SA(B)(90) guys (RMQ). I think the guys who are AASAA (SA(E)(90) will have to attend aswell)

Covered already.

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/...c/start=0.html

Originally Posted by troopie

Covered already.

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/...c/start=0.html

Thanks - it would appear the regional brigades are running the standalone SA(M) course...still not heard anything in the way of course dates in my neck of the woods.

...but still, a 3-5 day course that teaches you how to write an EASP - must beplenty of smoke breaks!

Originally Posted by Gassing_Badgers

...now I'll stand by for a broadside of replies telling me to get with the times and just do the courses, but isn't anyone else just a little cynical of the current 'course' mentality that seems to becoming the norm these days?
...and don't even get me started on the latest 10-days Landrover Fam training issue...

No you won't. It's stuff like this which inflicting death on the TA by a thousand cuts. The whole organisation is going to run into the buffers very soon (see FMT600 thread).

FFS, I can go to Iraq for 6 months on 14 days notice but cannot plan or run a blank firing exercise for my guys - many of whom have operational experience and the rest have a passed their WHT within the last 12 months.

With another 'review' of the TA in the offing, I think we are going to see a lot of units moved into the same TACs but training on a different night, the final nail in the LSDI coffin (viz. the binning of large numbers of Offr and SNCO posts as they are not needed by the regular army) and the TA turned into Training Regiments which are run by regular staff.

MSR

Sadly, I am minded to agree with you: the TA as we know it is being destroyed - either through ignorance or intention - piece by piece.

The concept of using the TA as a training/holding unit for theatre cannot have escaped the attention of the regular army, who lets face it, have been pretty much up against it for the last 5 years. It also hasn't escaped the attention of the likes of Broon and his cronies, who can only see the bottom line of pounds, shillings and pence.

The major problems with this theory are:
1. The TA comprises of volunteers, the majority of whom have a day job that pays the mortgage
2. The TA 'offer' needs to add something over and above the aforesaid day job
3. The majority of TA soldiers are well aware of the regular army, but whatever reason decided that full-time soldiering was not the job they wanted to pay the mortgage with (see 1. above)
4. In order to mobilise someone for active service, they must be trained and fit for role - in other words, you also need to keep them in long enough without them getting bored and p#ssing off.

Well with a reduction in 'estate' you can bin off the RFCAs, reduce your NRPS and staff TA units like ATRAs, not field units - which solves your officer shortage and provides non-deployable posts for your seniors, who are also not wanted by the regular army.

Job jobbed.


MSR
P.S. Not saying I agree with any of this, but anything you can't put in a spreadsheet can't be counted and anything you can't measure, you can't manage.

Originally Posted by msr

FFS, I can go to Iraq for 6 months on 14 days notice but cannot plan or run a blank firing exercise for my guys - many of whom have operational experience and the rest have a passed their WHT within the last 12 months.

Feckin stupid init, I've just finished my Bravo so what was the point of the lessons on blank and pyro use? Surely being a trained soldier makes you capable of fire a friggin blank?

an arrse covering exercise

its amusing to note as a trained assault pioneer I can use all sorts of nasty stuff, but not blank or pyro....which is more dangerous a claymore mine or a thunderflash....??

Originally Posted by yater_spoon

its amusing to note as a trained assault pioneer I can use all sorts of nasty stuff, but not blank or pyro....which is more dangerous a claymore mine or a thunderflash....??

You can use it, but not plan or conduct the exercise.

I have the A qual, so can prepare and use a small charge of PE to destroy blinds or misfires. It doesn't allow me to plan and conduct dems tasks though.

I grant you it is all a bit daft, but it is also not that big a deal. PSIs get qualified on a T3 course, then teacg the relevant officers/NCOs. In a short while, this will all just be part of the training process.

Still, it wouldn't be the TA forum if we couldn't get a quick "we're doomed" into any post discussing changes in how we do things.

I brought this up with my OC 2 weekends ago after the previous thread on this. I qualified last year with my C & D Qual, and my course was the first to gain the M Qual aswell. Goodnews I thought got back to my unit, told them about this M Qual to be given the shrugged shoulders and a so what attitude.

My OC wants one of the Pl comd to run a weekend soon on a COIN theme. This said PL Comd wants to have a Public Order/Baton Round Stand that I am to run as well as a 0.22 Indoor CQB NI type range.

Now my dilema is shall I carry out his wishes or just stamp my feet and refuse to run any stands???

Originally Posted by yater_spoon

its amusing to note as a trained assault pioneer I can use all sorts of nasty stuff, but not blank or pyro....which is more dangerous a claymore mine or a thunderflash....??

Oh dont get me started on this. Asslt Pnr Pl comd, have tried to get on DSO/ESO 4 times now to be fcuked off to the high port as course full, each time my name was put forward to the next course. Found out now, that when a new RE Tp COmd and Asslt Pnr Pl comd course is loaded they are automatically entered onto the dems course which follows on so the chance of me getting it now are slim to fcuking nil.

As for the (L) Qual (Claymore Mine) tried to get that at Breacon when I did my LFTT as someone else needed that for a regular posting, all he had to do was go off and read the Pamphlet in the evenings and sit the paper at the end of the course, was I able to do it. No I am a STAB

Originally Posted by easesprings

I brought this up with my OC 2 weekends ago after the previous thread on this. I qualified last year with my C & D Qual, and my course was the first to gain the M Qual aswell. Goodnews I thought got back to my unit, told them about this M Qual to be given the shrugged shoulders and a so what attitude.

My OC wants one of the Pl comd to run a weekend soon on a COIN theme. This said PL Comd wants to have a Public Order/Baton Round Stand that I am to run as well as a 0.22 Indoor CQB NI type range.

Now my dilema is shall I carry out his wishes or just stamp my feet and refuse to run any stands???

A few of points:

1. Neither of the proposed ranges have anything to do with the M qual.

2. Baton rounds do not fit neatly into the usual practices used on Gallery/ETR ranges. Check Pam 21 IN DETAIL before you commit to ensure that you have the relevant quals, and what areas they may be used in. I have not had to do this for some time, so I am too out of date to confirm the exact details.

3. Where does he propose to get the .22 from, and with what weapon systems? Is your indoor range approved for firing from other than fixed firing points, straight at the designated target areas (ie the bullet catcher)?

Hopefully your SPSI will "guide" your Pl Comd in the ways of planning exercises and ranges. You see, if he had attended a course to teach him how to safely plan and conduct excercises and/or ranges, he would know that he cannot do what he proposes.

Oh no, that would be a daft idea, wouldn't it?

Easesprings

If I know you you will stamp your feet, throw an issy fit and head straight for the biff tent - I won't tell your OC honest

Like Duke has said make sure the 'other' Pl Comd has a reality check or PSI handy before he plans anything - would not be the first time a young up and thruster had to readjust his plans when a does of reality was injected.

No saying it should not happen training needs realism but it has to be within guidelines no matter how much we find it annoying - of course you can go outside the box so long as you do not get caught

Cheers

P.S As for .22 ammo there is none and no conversion kits - cadets got the whole lot along with most TAC indoor ranges less admin you see