Originally Posted by The_Duke

I'll help out with the OCs response.

1. He used to be quite reasonable, but his attendance and value has tailed off significantly.

2. He is not mature enough to manage his interactions with junior ranks well, and I had to get involved in all sorts of stupidity last year because of this. I thought we had resolved it, but it appears he has been at it again, causing me yet more unnecessary work. He appears incapable of accepting that gossiping about junior ranks to other seniors or officers, especially outside of the unit, is not acceptable behaviour.

3. He has been in the TA for years, but has reached his rank ceiling, is medically downgraded, underperforming and is now blocking others.

4. I informed him that he needs to free the PID for the good of the unit, and advised him to seek alternative TA employment elsewhere. I thought it better that he found a new position to move to voluntarily than wait before I had to instigate administrative action to move him.

Easy.

Sure your not my OC? If I were to guess what he would say thats exactly it. Apart from the blocking bit, the next CMT is several ranks below me.

I dont agree with him, but I am sure that would be his position.

Does raise an interesting question though. At what point should an SNCO draw attention to inappropriate conduct by a junior or should he just run and hide unless he gets the sack? I know the action I took, stand by it and do not believe it was wrong.

Cardinal

There's no way they can kick you out for the stated reasons. C'mon!

Originally Posted by Cardinal

Sure your not my OC? If I were to guess what he would say thats exactly it. Apart from the blocking bit, the next CMT is several ranks below me.

I dont agree with him, but I am sure that would be his position.

Does raise an interesting question though. At what point should an SNCO draw attention to inappropriate conduct by a junior or should he just run and hide unless he gets the sack? I know the action I took, stand by it and do not believe it was wrong.

Cardinal

1. Be grown up and talk to them directly first - don't talk about them to others within the earshot of their peers, thus giving them yet more gossip for the NAAFI.

2. If unsuccessful, a chat with the CSM should be your next choice as a SNCO, explaining why you think there is an issue that needs addressing, and what you have done so far to try and resolve it (and why you believe this has not worked).

3. CSM and/or OC call in soldier for formal interview.

You will notice that the above suggested procedure does not involve gossiping with other people, but raising your concerns within your unit structure. Are you sure that you are a SNCO? You seem to have no idea about how to conduct the basic business of managing soldiers.

Originally Posted by Cardinal

Sure your not my OC? If I were to guess what he would say thats exactly it. Apart from the blocking bit, the next CMT is several ranks below me.

I dont agree with him, but I am sure that would be his position.

Does raise an interesting question though. At what point should an SNCO draw attention to inappropriate conduct by a junior or should he just run and hide unless he gets the sack? I know the action I took, stand by it and do not believe it was wrong.

Cardinal

That indeed might be the oc's response, however, your response is that "I have been denied natural justice".

Natural justice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If it gets to step 5, go to a solicitor, as you need to check you are on solid legal ground.

In addition, document all background facts and correspondence and take them with you when you go to see solicitor.

Originally Posted by Cardinal

At what point should an SNCO draw attention to inappropriate conduct by a junior or should he just run and hide unless he gets the sack? I know the action I took, stand by it and do not believe it was wrong.

Doesn't this all need to be pushed up the SNCO/WO COC? What has your SSM/CSM/RSM done about this, are they just playing OC lapdog?

Originally Posted by The_Duke

1. Be grown up and talk to them directly first - don't talk about them to others within the earshot of their peers, thus giving them yet more gossip for the NAAFI.

2. If unsuccessful, a chat with the CSM should be your next choice as a SNCO, explaining why you think there is an issue that needs addressing, and what you have done so far to try and resolve it (and why you believe this has not worked).

3. CSM and/or OC call in soldier for formal interview.

You will notice that the above suggested procedure does not involve gossiping with other people, but raising your concerns within your unit structure. Are you sure that you are a SNCO? You seem to have no idea about how to conduct the basic business of managing soldiers.

Same in civvy life. A manager of any status would be castrated for discussing another member of staff's shortcomings in an improper manner. It could be the cause of the junior walking out and getting a rather large sum of money for constructive dismissal awarded by an Ind Trib. Basically, it would be seen as industrial misconduct and professional inadequacy.

Duke – may I play an SO1 tasked to look at the matter – for perspective.

Originally Posted by The_Duke

I'll help out with the OCs response.

Originally Posted by The_Duke

1. He used to be quite reasonable, but his attendance and value has tailed off significantly.

Because you bullied him Major, made him sign some sort of bizarre apology letter that may or may not have a bearing on this matter, why did you not follow JSP etc etc.

Show me the file so I can pass it to ALS, I am concerned about a long standing SNCO being hounded out of a unit on the basis of hearsay.

Show me your attendance records – yours, hers and Sgt X, when did his attendance tail off and what was the date of the interview you had with him.

Originally Posted by The_Duke

2. He is not mature enough to manage his interactions with junior ranks well, and I had to get involved in all sorts of stupidity last year because of this. I thought we had resolved it, but it appears he has been at it again, causing me yet more unnecessary work. He appears incapable of accepting that gossiping about junior ranks to other seniors or officers, especially outside of the unit, is not acceptable behaviour.

Major, show me a copy of your contemporaneous notes of all meetings that demonstrate you took action on the first occasion, when issues of fraud were first raised and the notes were you counsel him about the immaturity. This is a disciplinary matter – Did you consult G1 Disc at Bde, if so why not, who did you consult. Why has it come to this?

Who said discussing pertinent matters of potential qualification fraud by a long standing responsible SNCO is not acceptable? He reported back to you at the earliest opportunity, so what is the issue – your view of your personnel reputation is of less interest to me than the potential that these claims have.. Show me the record of conversation you had with the RAF or did you not think matters like this are worthy of investigation?

Show me the reference that demonstrate that you have the power to dismiss a soldier on the basis that you don’t like gossip as a sub unit commander. Show me the record of conversation of the disciplinary interview you held with Sgt X on this matter of gossip.

Originally Posted by The_Duke

3. He has been in the TA for years, but has reached his rank ceiling, is medically downgraded, underperforming and is now blocking others.

I refer you to PAP 10 – show me the documents that demonstrate that you have taken action to manage this via PAP10 as is the extant instruction, rather than some “unofficial” process.

How many more P7 do you have on your books and what action have you taken against them – has Sgt X been singled out and if so – why?

Underperforming – OK – demonstrate this and show me the management plan – contentious dismissal ???

No documents, not signed – but Major, I thought YOU were looking to dismiss this long standing SNCO on the basis of gossip – forgive me if I find your approach inconsistent.

Originally Posted by The_Duke

4. I informed him that he needs to free the PID for the good of the unit, and advised him to seek alternative TA employment elsewhere. I thought it better that he found a new position to move to voluntarily than wait before I had to instigate administrative action to move him.

I am not sure that your approach is in accordance with PAP10, why would you “lean on” a P7 graded soldier to get him to join another unit – to do so is to simply delay the matter and give another unit a problem and hold up one of their PIDs – forgive me if I question your moral courage and judgment as an Officer – I don’t believe you.

What conversations have you had with other units – show me copies of the documents.

Easy.

Maybe not.

Originally Posted by The_Duke

1. Be grown up and talk to them directly first - don't talk about them to others within the earshot of their peers, thus giving them yet more gossip for the NAAFI.

I did talk to her first, several times, each time she went to one of the WOII's and complained. I had to justify why I told her not to wear a stable belt as a recruit and to wait until she had completed training like everyone else. I had to justify why I had told her that the prospect of her becoming a Paramedic in several years time did not make her better qualified than me. I also had to justify telling her to wear the same uniform as everyone else and not to wear her Norge on a drill night. I doubt if I would have had to justify these actions if it had been any other soldier.

2. If unsuccessful, a chat with the CSM should be your next choice as a SNCO, explaining why you think there is an issue that needs addressing, and what you have done so far to try and resolve it (and why you believe this has not worked).

I did raise it, not with the SSM he was away, I was told to let her wear what she wanted.

3. CSM and/or OC call in soldier for formal interview.

You will notice that the above suggested procedure does not involve gossiping with other people, but raising your concerns within your unit structure. Are you sure that you are a SNCO? You seem to have no idea about how to conduct the basic business of managing soldiers.

Managed lots of soldiers over the years and had problems with only two, the situation with another soldier was managed very well and this one this one which obviously hasn't gone well.

Cardinal

Originally Posted by The_Duke

1. Be grown up and talk to them directly first - don't talk about them to others within the earshot of their peers, thus giving them yet more gossip for the NAAFI.

2. If unsuccessful, a chat with the CSM should be your next choice as a SNCO, explaining why you think there is an issue that needs addressing, and what you have done so far to try and resolve it (and why you believe this has not worked).

3. CSM and/or OC call in soldier for formal interview.

You will notice that the above suggested procedure does not involve gossiping with other people, but raising your concerns within your unit structure. Are you sure that you are a SNCO? You seem to have no idea about how to conduct the basic business of managing soldiers.

Duke - you are correct that Cardinal ( on the face of it) has acted inappropriately, however I am not convinced that the OC has acted appropriately either, but hardly a sacking matter - interview without coffe I'd suggest.

Sub Unit commanders are not demi-Gods, they have process and rules to follow.

What I would like to know is - what process has Cardinal been through and what documentation has been produced?

We are both at a disadvantage but I am puzzled that the OC would put pressure on a P7 to join another unit - very poor process and unbelievable in an AMS unit.

I am urrring on the side that the OC is flying by the seat of his trousers on very poor advice and could get f*cked by this.

Originally Posted by Hootch

Duke – may I play an SO1 tasked to look at the matter – for perspective.



Maybe not.

Hootch's points are exactly how the grinder would work on that rainy Tuesday afternoon when everyone is wondering how it came to this....

I would also add to the above "interview without coffee" scenario that Hootch's responses would only be in the contexct of a standard challenge. If the Junior soldier was to have deployed and issues were to have emerged resulting in a major investigation the momentum of the Sh1t rolling down hill would be significantly enhanced.