Originally Posted by Dr_Evil

I fully agree. You must have experienced the weird glow coming from potential STABs who find out that they actually get paid for turning up, and when they first hear about the bounty.

It is a joy to watch their little faces light up, nicht wahr?

Originally Posted by Dr_Evil

It is the other stuff which draws people in. The thing is, are we doing enough to ensure we are giving them what they join for, and giving that motiviation to join the credit and the value it deserves.

God, it's high up here on this horse.

The key (or at least one of the keys to an obviously multi-locked door) is probably in managing expectations. Specify, with no room for misunderstanding, the commitment required to get through Recruit Training and then what opportunities will become available. Be honest about about the role and the frequency of things like Live Fire Exs, CALFEXs, helicopter rides, heavy/foreign weapons shoots etc.

The continuous cycle of pre-mobilisation training has meant that we have a lot to offer these past few years, but of course this will not always be so. They come in usually knowing not much of anything, so anything you offer military-wise looks like a deal. If your straight up about it they won't feel cheated or deflated by reality when they realise that their transport to an RTC weekend won't be a Lynx flight.

Their motivation seems to be linked to tangible achievements i.e. passing out at CIC, it's afterwards where the disillusionment sets in and having gone from motoring at 100mph during recruit training to suddenly hit the quick sand of unit tedium is often the parting point for some soldiers. At this point it really is a case of effective platoon level leadership and there is no substitute for Officers and NCOs who go the extra mile to make Tuesday evenings a training event worth going to. To this end I don't believe big guns and shiny kit is always required, just imaginative training.

So to answer you point of 'do we offer enough of the stuff they want?', at the moment yes. In spades. DIE training is great for the whole battalion, not just the bods who are going on the next tour. Non-operationally speaking, but perhaps somewhat Infantry specific, I think the core things that will sell and motivate are contained in Annual Camps, courses and promotion cadres. Surely many Corps trades have the inherent draw of their role?

As a soon-to-be-stab currently working my way through basic training I thought I'd chuck my tuppence in here. I don't think there needs to be a large reward system in place - the recruits I've run into so far fall broadly into the categories of

• 17 and don't know what to do with my life, the army appeals and I'd like to try it out first. These people don't need any encouragement, they aren't going to get the army experience they want anywhere else.
• mid 20s and dissatisfied with the day job - these guys want to do something interesting with their spare time. The hard part is demonstrating that they will get to do this as opposed to spending months waiting on the recruiting process
• old bastards - these guys have a solid living, but are idealistic sods who want to serve their country. Much the same as the above group, the trick is not crushing their spirits with bureacracy before they've had a chance to get involved.

As it used to be related to my day job I know a little about how the process is supposed to work from interest to recruit to soldier but it really doesn't work as advertised. In my case the AFCO didn't know what to do with a TA request, the TA were amazed someone how bothered going to the AFCO, and it took 6 months with no delays from my side to go from application submitted to getting offered a space on a selection weekend. This whole process i'm told should be set to change with the recent RPP decision and it looks like a key area where the money does need to be spent.

My view on the next area where the money needs to go at the moment is on getting more instructors trained and getting more of them on the training weekends. The number of recruits my unit is seeing is definately on the up and the training centre is already at the limits of its staffing capacity. I am now ready to be abused as I dont even have a rank slide yet. Please commence.

Do tell us how you propose filling the empty messes...

Perhaps it is my fault for emptying them. Seeing as I am now on the Unposted List, let's see if they fill up in my absence. I won't be holding my breath.

Dr Evil can't even get a 'good egg' Cpl into the commissioning system and Pebbles55 and nsstab give a rather good indication of the frustrations of those who are keen to join up as soldiers.

m-s-r

Originally Posted by Charlie_Cong

The TA being envisaged should be attractive enough that the swathes of regular soldiers leaving in the next few years at least consider joining, and a fairly large proportion overcome their keeness to start civvy life with a clean sheet, join in some form soon after leaving & begin to make it part of their lives within 2 years.

My bold. I fully agree with your point. Unfortunately, the Army doesn't. Most ex-regs are advised to spend at least a year away from the TA, sorting their jobs and relationships out, before they return to the green. Brilliantly, the one-year point is also the moment at which Glasgow's rulemongers make it much harder for an ex-reg to rejoin. Their medical on leaving regular service ceases to be valid, so they require a new one; that new one needs to tally with the old one, yadda yadda. In short, if someone has been out for more than a year, it becomes procedurally harder to get them in than a civvy with nil experience.

I should also add that in the very same month as the Future Reserves 2020 report came out, advocating a significant expansion of the TA, the medical entry standards for ex-regulars joining the TA were made tougher. Until July 2011, the minimum medical standards for ex-regs joining the TA were the same as those they needed to have in order to stay in the Army. Since July 2011, ex-regulars need to be medically fully deployable (ie, fully fit) in order to join the TA, even though the standard for remaining in regular service is still medically limited deployable.

The real-life effect of this idiocy has been that experienced SSgts and WO2s who I could have taken and used as awesome recruiters and recruit trainers, as SQMSs, etc., have had to be turned away. And the best bit about all this is that Glasgow has taken, on average, more than 9 months before telling them to PFO, during which (no doubt) a little bit of the said ex-regs was wondering: "these STABs' admin is up their hoop." Beautiful.

Originally Posted by Dr_Evil

My bold. I fully agree with your point. Unfortunately, the Army doesn't. Most ex-regs are advised to spend at least a year away from the TA, sorting their jobs and relationships out, before they return to the green. Brilliantly, the one-year point is also the moment at which Glasgow's rulemongers make it much harder for an ex-reg to rejoin. Their medical on leaving regular service ceases to be valid, so they require a new one; that new one needs to tally with the old one, yadda yadda. In short, if someone has been out for more than a year, it becomes procedurally harder to get them in than a civvy with nil experience.

I should also add that in the very same month as the Future Reserves 2020 report came out, advocating a significant expansion of the TA, the medical entry standards for ex-regulars joining the TA were made tougher. Until July 2011, the minimum medical standards for ex-regs joining the TA were the same as those they needed to have in order to stay in the Army. Since July 2011, ex-regulars need to be medically fully deployable (ie, fully fit) in order to join the TA, even though the standard for remaining in regular service is still medically limited deployable.

The real-life effect of this idiocy has been that experienced SSgts and WO2s who I could have taken and used as awesome recruiters and recruit trainers, as SQMSs, etc., have had to be turned away. And the best bit about all this is that Glasgow has taken, on average, more than 9 months before telling them to PFO, during which (no doubt) a little bit of the said ex-regs was wondering: "these STABs' admin is up their hoop." Beautiful.

Absolutely. I agree with both you and CC that ex-Regs are a good source of experience Officers, SNCOs, JNCOs and Rfn, but the procedure is twice as torturous than for a 'slick-sleeved' 18 year old. The medical aside, the need for the Special Enlistment is currently bogged down to the back-log at Glasgow and this will surely get worse with more ex-Regs looking to join and fewer MoD staff to process them in the future. It is at these points where resourcing is needed. The enlistment and recruit training process is almost purpose built to bottleneck. Sometimes with good reason, certain elements can hardly be shortcut, but it can eye-wateringly frustrating for someone who has to endure it.

Two points on your last paragraph (and then I'm off to bed as I have a busy day ahead of counting webbing apparently). I think your line about missing out on experience WOs and SNCOs may be somewhat moot as the TA has habitually been laden with an excess of those ranks and I don't really see a deficit waiting to be filled there. Lastly, this is one of those rare occasions where where one can stand STABliciously proud and aver, "Not our fault Guv!" It's not so much the STAB's admin at fault here. A recruit wing at a TA unit could perform like maestros and still remain hostage to APC.

Originally Posted by RP578

Two points on your last paragraph (and then I'm off to bed as I have a busy day ahead of counting webbing apparently). I think your line about missing out on experience WOs and SNCOs may be somewhat moot as the TA has habitually been laden with an excess of those ranks and I don't really see a deficit waiting to be filled there. Lastly, this is one of those rare occasions where where one can stand STABliciously proud and aver, "Not our fault Guv!" It's not so much the STAB's admin at fault her. A recruit wing at a TA unit could perform like maestros and still remain hostage to APC.

I hear what you say about SNCOs and WOs, but one or two ex-Regs in that rank arriving into a TA unit can have an interesting galvanising effect.

Ref the fault for the delay: I meant that the ex-Reg waiting 9 months to be told to feck off would assume that it was the TA unit's fault, and reasonably so (even if wrongly). My concern is that he then goes off and spreads the negative word about how the TA treated him, when in reality it weren't us, guv. Nighty-night!

Not sure what its like now, but one of my main bug bears was lack of protection from the employer, I would get major dick around from my employer who would insist I take annual leave for TA, which was shitty., he would not grant me unpaid leave.

In Oz we have much better protection and cannot be discriminated against, better protection when deployed, self employed etc. of course the training etc all plays a part, but but if a potential recruit thinks his employer will not cooperate, you won't even get him through the door- its not like you can just change employers with the current climate.

I have come to the sad, cynical, but probably in many ways correct, conclusion that the Regular Army have absolutely no interest whatsoever in making a TA of a mere 30,000 a viable proposition; why would they? If a TA of 30,000 deployable bods delivers, then what possible justification is there for maintaining a Regular Army of 82,000? There isn't one, because the logical answer would be to increase the size of the TA again. The sadly mistaken bit is this - the Regular Army (and by this, I mean the headshed) have badly misread the tea leaves. The Government will quite simply not tolerate the 'do nothing' approach and some senior officers wil,l quite possibly, very publicly lose their jobs as a way of pour encourager les autres. No wonder they are panicking in Andover.

Originally Posted by msr

Do tell us how you propose filling the empty messes...

Perhaps it is my fault for emptying them. Seeing as I am now on the Unposted List, let's see if they fill up in my absence. I won't be holding my breath.

Dr Evil can't even get a 'good egg' Cpl into the commissioning system and Pebbles55 and nsstab give a rather good indication of the frustrations of those who are keen to join up as soldiers.

m-s-r

By improving the transfer rates from OTC to TA.

This does not require bribery - far from it. Why should my tax money contribute towards £10k per year just so that someone with a degree in basket weaving joins the TA? It has - limited - merit for specific TA trades requiring professional qualifications, but it is certainly a waste of money if applied on a wider scale.

We have a particular proposition to OTC cadets. If they commission in the OTC and pass Airborne Student (TA P Coy specifically run for OTC cadets) then they can walk straight into a Pl Comd position in 4 Para. They are on probation in case they turn out to be fit but useless, but the assumption is that they are good to go unless proven otherwise. Most of our subbies in recent years have come this route which is a major change from the old system of recruiting from within our own ranks, mainly because the TA commissioning process is now so tortuous that most in full time employment find it almost impossible to manage.

So what, you say, it is no different to them leaving the OTC with a TA commission and going to any other TA unit. The difference is that the Regiment has offered them a unique experience (TA P Coy) while they were students, echoing the comments earlier about giving recruits achievement goals. If successful they they gain bragging rights within their unit, and their first step towards the Regimental family whilst still at university. They can train with 4 Para wearing their maroon beret with OTC cap badge, be the Pl Comd of a 4 Para Pl on exercises in the UK and abroad, go to the few mess functions we have etc.

The total cost of this system is the MTDs and food for the duration of the course and the effective use of already in place regular staff, infastructure and real estate.

The offer is not about money, it is about experiences. Offer them the things that their mates can't buy online and you have a real chance. Make it all about cash and you will have them for as long as the cash is there, no longer.

29 Cdo Regt RA used to run somethng similar to this many years ago called Ex GREEN STUDENT. It wasn't the full course, but it was an advanced taster, designed to get guys interested in serving either in the Regular Regt or the attached TA Bty (289 IIRC - chinnned off in SDR in 1998 also IIRC). It seemed to work.