Thread: Sdsr

Originally Posted by dergeneral

Ha ha ha ha ha.....

Well, it was posted with tongue firmly inserted into cheek!

Originally Posted by The_Duke

Well, it was posted with tongue firmly inserted into cheek!

There's a serious point there, however. SF(R) face in microcosm a problem that affects the wider TA. As the Regular Army has upped its game for operations (eg "green" troops performing complex COIN tasks that even 10 years ago would have been the preserve of SF) the TA has struggled to keep up....unsurprisingly...no longer can it 'hide' behind the "break glass in case of WWIII" defence of being just about good enough to throw into the breach if the Russians came. (Thus SF(R) as stay behind or long range recce patrols were just about credible. SF(R) as Tier 1 operators in the COE are not). At the moment the plan appears to be to push TA soldiers into those jobs within the regular orbat where they can just about make the grade - pvt soldiers, watchkeepers etc - because of the acceptance that the training bill to produce TA soldiers who can cut it in the high end jobs is simply unsustainable. I wonder though, whether that's a plan for the long term ? (Nobody has a plan for the long term of the TA by the way....you're just not that important....)

Can you define 'complex COIN tasks'?

MSR

Originally Posted by msr

Can you define 'complex COIN tasks'?

MSR

Anything that doesn't involve Northern Ireland and blowing everything in sight to little bits....

Since the Regular army at "Man in Charge" level struggled to handle COIN in Muslim countries, why should the TA be any better or any worse?

Actually I take even more issue with this line "...because of the acceptance that the training bill to produce TA soldiers who can cut it in the high end jobs is simply unsustainable."

Really? If it's "Unsustainable" for the TA them how can it be "sustainable" for the regulars? I'm not paid 24/7 365/6 pension rights, accommandation costs, PFI feeding costs, cleaners and everything else. PDT lasts exactly the same length of time as regulars. So how come it's "Unsustainable" for the TA ?

Originally Posted by msr

Can you define 'complex COIN tasks'?

MSR

There are a number of TTPs currently in regular use use - largely to do with the fusion of various find capabilities and strike - that not so long ago were seen as the preserve of 'THEM' that are now a commonplace in the wider army. The point I'm making is that for the COE the Army as a whole has stepped up...and there is only so far that the TA can do so within the current bill the MOD is willing to pay. Consequently the set of tasks that are unsuitable for TA officers and NCOs - given current levels of resourcing - is expanding.

It's "unsustainable" for the TA because you don't spend the time practising and learning. The Regular Army doesn't sit around doing nothing when not on ops ! PDT (as admirably discussed in the QM's thread on the Reality of Herrick) should only be a final polish on a basic level of training. The reality is that many tasks are now so complex and technical that it is unrealistic (and, because of duty of care, legally unjustifiable) to expect TA officers and NCOs to take them on on the basis of PDT......

Has this been tested or is it 'received wisdom'?

MSR

Originally Posted by dergeneral

There are a number of TTPs currently in regular use use - largely to do with the fusion of various find capabilities and strike - that not so long ago were seen as the preserve of 'THEM' that are now a commonplace in the wider army. The point I'm making is that for the COE the Army as a whole has stepped up...and there is only so far that the TA can do so within the current bill the MOD is willing to pay. Consequently the set of tasks that are unsuitable for TA officers and NCOs - given current levels of resourcing - is expanding.

It's "unsustainable" for the TA because you don't spend the time practising and learning. The Regular Army doesn't sit around doing nothing when not on ops ! PDT (as admirably discussed in the QM's thread on the Reality of Herrick) should only be a final polish on a basic level of training. The reality is that many tasks are now so complex and technical that it is unrealistic (and, because of duty of care, legally unjustifiable) to expect TA officers and NCOs to take them on on the basis of PDT......

Actually, to be honest, how much time does the regular army spend on "practising and learning" between ops? Given the number of exercises cancelled or cut back in the last few years.

The problem, to me, is that some people are over egging the "complex and technical" pudding way too much. And, to be frank, the army has not shown that it can handle COIN ops at all well in the last 10 years.
I suspect there are more people better able to grasp and run with the task of "Hearts and minds and Aid" in COIN ops working for NGO's than the army can supply.

Originally Posted by Kitmarlowe

And, to be frank, the army has not shown that it can handle COIN ops at all well in the last 10 years.
I suspect there are more people better able to grasp and run with the task of "Hearts and minds and Aid" in COIN ops working for NGO's than the army can supply.

You would think that the best people to interface with civilian agencies might well be those who are twice the citizen.....

Originally Posted by dergeneral

The reality is that many tasks are now so complex and technical that it is unrealistic (and, because of duty of care, legally unjustifiable) to expect TA officers and NCOs to take them on on the basis of PDT......

Not the ISTAR elements in the fob's - very technical and complex (the setting up and running as opposed to the using) and is owned by the Yeomanry under the RA.

Originally Posted by quiller

Not the ISTAR elements in the fob's - very technical and complex (the setting up and running as opposed to the using) and is owned by the Yeomanry under the RA.

No arguments there. But note my emphasis. The kit might be technically complex in that it is advanced...but that does not equate to the job being so. And I'd not argue against a TA soldier being used in a very narrow specialisation to maintain technical kit. But on the other hand I just do not see them being able to put in the time to gain the qualifications and expertise necessary to enable them to do many of the tasks now performed by regukar soldiers. A simple test. Why do you have PSIs ? As well as the permanence necessary to deliver training because of the hours required to book training areas blah blah blah....they are there as professional advisors, with the qualifications and experience that you - by definition, because you are part time, lack.

And - MSR - I would violently agree about the civil agency influence tasks. But: 1. How do we avoid the "busman's holiday" objection that what people join the TA to do is not to do their civvie job in uniform and, 2. The REAL civilian reconstruction experts, the professionals at interfacing with the civil power in failed and fragile states...well they're not on military TCOS but contracted out to DFiD and USAID for buckets of tax free cash....notwithstanding stories of talented bankers, sewage engineers, public health officials and all the rest that just happened to be on the FET thanks to coincidence...generally what we get via the TA are enthusiastic amateurs.

It's not so bad for private soldiers. But the days of SNCOs and Officers (save, perhaps, Lts) actually having a meaningful 'warfighting' role outside of an FTRS engagement (and some narrow specialisms) are gone. Beats me why anyone would want to become a TA officer, frankly.

Originally Posted by quiller

Not the ISTAR elements in the fob's - very technical and complex (the setting up and running as opposed to the using) and is owned by the Yeomanry under the RA.

These are probably one of the few exceptions that prove the rule. Any TA officer with a decent experience base who is willing to look at the TA command structure with a critical eye would struggle to disagree with dergeneral.

Many are keen to hark back to the old cold war roles, and cite examples of people they know doing fantastic work on ops. Unfortunately, those doing the great jobs tend to also be the exception. Having just observed a cohort of 200+ TA pax mobilising for H13, including a 7 Qs and watchkeeping package for the officers and SNCOs I am firmly of the mind that the majority of them should not be let more than a short arms length from the stores or watchkeepers desk. All keen, desperate to do their bit/do well but the majority are simply out of their depth working in the COE.

I, of course, am awesome and will be telling the CGS how it should be done.

Originally Posted by The_Duke

Many are keen to hark back to the old cold war roles, and cite examples of people they know doing fantastic work on ops. Unfortunately, those doing the great jobs tend to also be the exception. Having just observed a cohort of 200+ TA pax mobilising for H13, including a 7 Qs and watchkeeping package for the officers and SNCOs I am firmly of the mind that the majority of them should not be let more than a short arms length from the stores or watchkeepers desk. All keen, desperate to do their bit/do well but the majority are simply out of their depth working in the COE.

Well said, and the bit in bold succinctly put with more elegance than I could muster in my first attempt.

Originally Posted by Kitmarlowe

I suspect there are more people better able to grasp and run with the task of "Hearts and minds and Aid" in COIN ops working for NGO's than the army can supply.

It's not "hearts & minds" I'm talking about. It is the fusion, command and management of multiple human and technical find and strike assets in a very complex operating environment that requires a depth of professional knowledge about the behaviours, characteristics and limitations of all of those assets that you simply can not develop as a part-time soldier.

For the sake of argument, Kitmarlowe, I'll suppose you're a highly paid tax accountant with a leading City firm with a decade's worth of experience in your chosen professional field. Nobody would suppose that someone who spends their working life doing something completely different could step into that job with a couple of months' training to polish up some evening classes. The firm might risk it, and an individual might get away with it for a bit with a lot of hard work and some cuffing. But, generally (in my limited experience) lives aren't at stake in tax accountancy.

Originally Posted by The_Duke

Having just observed a cohort of 200+ TA pax mobilising for H13, including a 7 Qs and watchkeeping package for the officers and SNCOs I am firmly of the mind that the majority of them should not be let more than a short arms length from the stores or watchkeepers desk.

And you can tell that just from watching them do a few MATTs? Are you sure you are not already the CGS?

Originally Posted by msr

And you can tell that just from watching them do a few MATTs? Are you sure you are not already the CGS?

Not RTMC, Optag at SENTA and then a LFTT/watchkeeper training package.

Field officers who cannot understand the basics of the 7 Questions, plotting TAIs over areas of population density because the bridges therein were deemed vital, calling for OS prep fires but then putting PID restrictions over the area they had just (notionally) turned to rubble.

SNCOs unable to give a halfway decent CSS section for a set of orders, lack of understanding of the med chain.

I could carry on, but it would only depress me.