Thread: Keep calm and carry on

Originally Posted by western

1. There is no unit TA or regular which is geared up for, trained or established to deliver the levels of 'Nation Building' that are being suggested.

Perhaps not - but the TA does hold some of the units that could form the basis of that capability - 15 Psyops Gp, the CIMIC set-up etc. The point was also made that the TA is more likely to have appropriate civilian experience. I've certainly served alongside a number of teachers, lawyers, police and of course local govt civil servants. That the MoD has never found a way to capture sensibly what we do for a living is rather a shame....

2. No individual, Regular or TA is qualified or experienced to do so more than any other.

Eh ? See above.

What is clear is that the TA, for certain and the Regular Army, probably, are just about finished in their current form.

I'd say that its a definite. If nothing else the incoming Govt say they are going to take 25% out of MoD costs.

All three people quoted by you both are individuals who were thrown into unusual circumstances as it was thought by the powers that be that they had a connection via their civilian employment. That they appear to have done well at the time is a bonus.

Let's not though lose sight of the fact that Iraq was a disaster for the British, so it would be interesting to see what their efforts led to. Certainly by 2006 the Police were seen as being part of the insurgency, corruption was rife and the education system was crumbling so let's not follow that train of thought

Originally Posted by western

2. No individual, Regular or TA is qualified or experienced to do so more than any other.

edited to add: "dr evil, too quick again!"

Originally Posted by western

Let's not though lose sight of the fact that Iraq was a disaster for the British, so it would be interesting to see what their efforts led to. Certainly by 2006 the Police were seen as being part of the insurgency, corruption was rife and the education system was crumbling so let's not follow that train of thought

Very much agreed. But more a symptom, not those on the ground not running a very sucessful engagement with the local population and local govt structures (where the threat level allowed), but of those higher up in the mil and FCO completly f*cking up dealing with the tribal and political leaders. And we all know arabs, will follow their tribal shite even if it leads to destruction and anarchy

Originally Posted by western

All three people quoted by you both are individuals who were thrown into unusual circumstances as it was thought by the powers that be that they had a connection via their civilian employment. That they appear to have done well at the time is a bonus.

Let's not though lose sight of the fact that Iraq was a disaster for the British, so it would be interesting to see what their efforts led to. Certainly by 2006 the Police were seen as being part of the insurgency, corruption was rife and the education system was crumbling so let's not follow that train of thought

You are confusing two very seperate issues. If the UK wants or needs to do COIN Ops then there is a large associated bit of working with the civilian population. Strangely enough the TA contains a lot of people who do the sort of tasks that role entails already, in their day job. To say otherwise is crass.

The Iraq F*ck up is another issue - but perhaps if the political will had been there we could have deployed more of the sort of ex TA "resources" noted above into the CIMIC role and they would have been rather more effective - and robust in delivery - than what we got with a bit of lip-srrvive and expecting DIFD and NGOs to do the job ? The insurgency might not then have gained the traction it did.

Edited to add - If we are talking about COIN Ops some-one needs to stick another 50p in the meter or they will not have a Reserve in April.

Originally Posted by quiller

Originally Posted by western

2. No individual, Regular or TA is qualified or experienced to do so more than any other.

edited to add: "dr evil, too quick again!"

So he wrote a book, what is to say that others could not have achieved the same?

Originally Posted by saladin

Strangely enough the TA contains a lot of people who do the sort of tasks that role entails already, in their day job. To say otherwise is crass.

And of course none of these people are anything other than experts at their day job?

Originally Posted by western

2. No individual, Regular or TA is qualified or experienced to do so more than any other.

Errm. Nope. Not "simply by their position", of course, but SGRS is full of people with qualifications rare or wholly absent amongst the regular army. Which is, in fact, the entire point of the organisation.

This is due not to any genetic superiority of the SGRS members to their regular counterparts but to the fact that the millstone of regular career management and lack of civvie comparable pay for most specialist skills means that people with those abilities tend to leave.

Not a TA example I shall admit.

A lass at my RNR unit asked what would be happening with the reforming of the RNR medical branch, she is a Midwife and when she stated this fact and asked if she would need to do the extra training to be a med techy or what ever she was told that skills like hers were going to be looked for. Id be surprised if the same isn't being loked at in the TA, especially if you have Ta med reg's already.

Originally Posted by western

So he wrote a book, what is to say that others could not have achieved the same?

Not just him...

When we invaded Iraq in 2003, it rapidly became obvious that there was no plans for what to do afterwards - e.g. how to run acountry that had just had it's entire government made illegal.

UK were given 4 Provinces and Basra City to administer - and found, oddly enough, that there was no-one in the Army with experience in such areas as prison management, high-voltage pylon erection and maintenance, running a TV station, running a University, runnig a Fire service, running a finance system to organise a complete change of currency.

What to do? Easy - trawl through the list of TA mobilised for TELIC 2 and take out 'volunteers'. All the examples I give above were areas run by TA soldiers on secondment - there were lots of others as well. This was entirely due to their civvy knowledge and skills. Note: without being bitchy - it was TA who did the vast majority of this, with some Regulars in other positions. ONLY the TA had the required skills in this case.

Just an example of what can be done I was one of these 'volunteers', and it was 'interesting', but not something I'd want to do it again; mind you, it worked - after a fashion - and compared to the alternative; well, there wasn't one.

So, to possibly summarise...

Six months enforced absence, plus other moves, as yet unvoiced, is going to fundamentally change the face of the TA. But, not necessarily a bad thing...

The TA could quite easily bring a large number of non-militarily taught skills to the party. However, although there are a few moves to build up those areas (CIMIC group etc), it's not on our ME at the moment, even if it should be. Furthermore, despite UK plc being involved in influence ops since 2003, there is still barely a coherent plan across the 'one army' to deliver personnel sufficiently trained and experienced enough to deliver this.

Turning the TA tap off for six months might just mean that even if the 'specialist' roles become our ME, there may well be too few people left to make it credible.

Originally Posted by western

Originally Posted by saladin

Strangely enough the TA contains a lot of people who do the sort of tasks that role entails already, in their day job. To say otherwise is crass.

And of course none of these people are anything other than experts at their day job?

Western, old chap, you might as well stop now.

Summary: You cannot argue. You do not know the facts. You are therefore either wrong or incapable of making out your case. Luckily, in either case, it does not matter. Detail for those less averse to reading follows.

Your position. You seem to be arguing that any given unit of regular soldiers are as qualified and competent to conduct nation building (CIMIC, Stablisation Ops, Psyops, SSR, etc.) as any given unit of TA soldiers.

My response. You are wrong. In any case, you miss the point. It is not a case of keep 500 regular soldiers or 500 TA soldiers. What is needed is selectivity and economy. The capabilties of the 500 TA soldiers must be properly identified, captured and used for the current fight.

Your argument.

a. You failed to respond to my challenge to your original, thin argument. Rather than defend it, you simply restated it.

b. You have failed to provide any evidence for any of your statements at all, either on the first or second statement of your case, or later.

The facts.

a. You said: "There is no unit TA or regular which is geared up for, trained or established to deliver the levels of 'Nation Building' that are being suggested."

You are therefore unaware of the existence of the Joint CIMIC Gp, the Military Stabilisation Support Group, 15 Psyops Gp, Media Ops Gp (V), etc. Not a good start.

b. You said: "No individual, Regular or TA is qualified or experienced to do so more than any other."

Your view that a regular Army major might have made as good a fist of bankrolling Basra as Maj Alderson is understandable in the context of a culture of amateurism. The same culture that has legally untrained SO2s negotiating and signing commercial contracts on behalf of the MOD, with hilarious consequences. Things get a bit more serious in the current fight.

To provide some evidence of the capabilities of the TA, I will speak from my own experience. It may or may not scale up to reflect the TA as a whole. But the fact is that the TA does possess a suite of skills whose importance in the current fight is clear.

On OP TELIC 1, the troop of which I was a member started out with 14 people, all TA. Of those, 6 were lorry drivers on loan from the RLC. The remainder were yeomanry. One yeoman was unemployed. The remainder were working. Their civilian jobs were:

* barrister (with five years' experience in practice and a background in international law and human rights)
* surveyor/engineer (who spoke two Middle Eastern languages)
* owner of a vehicle recovery company (also a mechanic)
* director of an internet PR company
* scientist
* PR bod generic
* owner of an import/export company

They were used in their military role on OP TELIC 1. Potential nation building roles for them are obvious.

Put in the context of your argument, how do they compare with a standard set of regular Army 2Lt, Sgt, Cpl, 2x LCpls and 7x Tprs in terms of usability in CIMIC, Stabilisation Ops, Psyops, etc?

Why your view does not matter.

You say that the TA is for certain finished in its current form. That is probably true. But that does not mean that it (or the people in it) are all about to be summarily junked. The TA possess the kind of capability outlined above, and that fact is dawning on the people who make the decisions. The fact that the TA can provide this capability cheaply is key.

You will no doubt be aware of the joint Cabinet Office/MOD/DFID/FCO outfit called the Stabilisation Unit. They are receiving a major influx of funding. They recruit people for Stabilisation Ops who have made such work their way of life. They pay consultancy rates. What if the TA could provide people who do not want to make Stabilisation Ops their career but are happy to bring their expertise to bear for an op tour, in order to maximise the COIN effort?

Those with the authority to bring about change are thinking along these lines already. Whether the TA retains its own structure of units and subunits or is administered in some other way, whether it is devoted wholly to CIMIC etc or retains a form from which it will be able to regenerate its LSDI role in five or so years' time, it will be around for a while yet.

While not a direct contribution to the thread some of the contributors might be interested in this.
Thomas Barnett at TED

Originally Posted by Dr_Evil

Originally Posted by western

Originally Posted by saladin

Strangely enough the TA contains a lot of people who do the sort of tasks that role entails already, in their day job. To say otherwise is crass.

And of course none of these people are anything other than experts at their day job?

Western, old chap, you might as well stop now.

I was going to but you are clearly so far up yourself you deserve a reply if only for me to confirm what a fool you really are.

Yes I am aware of the units you mentioned and hopefully they will form the nucleus of something useful in the future. At the moment they are too small and of little use when they are not utilised to any major degree. See Col Tootal et al.

I am please you went on Telic with such a diverse bunch, but half the 'skills' you mentioned were less relevant that their soldier skills. Internet PR?

I could go on but I will not. Simply to show that your deluge or words on a page are nothing more than tha.

Anyone noticed that everytime liarbour are in power the TA get it in the neck.The time before when they were in they shut down loads of TA centers.