Originally Posted by asr1

I would suggest that that Surge period for CIMICists (DPM or otherwise) would last for an awfully long time, and it could very well be argued that it would be best placed (sadly) under a civvy govt organisation, or contracted out (equally sadly).

Which is exactly what is happening. Chemonics, World Vision, DAI, Care, CADG, Mercy Corps, IOM and many other organisations are all out on the ground delivering huge development programs. They live in the local communities and very rarely visit any ISAF locations. A CIMIC surge is not necessary - the military just does not understand the wider picture. CIMIC is fine for mitigating the military presence but the work done by DFID, FCO and USAID is generally a complete mystery to military planners as it doesn't fit in the task org box.

Most people's vision of DFID et al is coloured heavily by Tootal's book - and all the time him and his lads were getting tied down in firefights and destroying goodwill the NGOs and other organisations were continuing their work.

I've not had the pleasure of reading Tootal's book. Would it be fair to say therefore, that the military would be better of focusing it's efforts on providing as secure an environment as possible for this work to carry on. (On the assumption that we do not become part of the problem).

Given that the MoD is not planning on LSDI in the short and medium terms, it therefore has no requirement for any sizeable CIMIC capability (regular or reserve!)?

Originally Posted by Mr_Bridger

Given that the MoD is not planning on LSDI in the short and medium terms, it therefore has no requirement for any sizeable CIMIC capability (regular or reserve!)?

... or indeed any military capability for anything other than COIN.

If this argument is correct, and if the MOD really means what it says about making Afghanistan the main effort of Defence then the TA should be put out to pasture and the vast bulk of the Armed Forces made redundant and its kit sold or mothballed.

Originally Posted by Dr_Evil

Originally Posted by Mr_Bridger

Given that the MoD is not planning on LSDI in the short and medium terms, it therefore has no requirement for any sizeable CIMIC capability (regular or reserve!)?

... or indeed any military capability for anything other than COIN.

If the MOD really means what it says about making Afghanistan the main effort of Defence then the TA should be put out to pasture and the vast bulk of the Armed Forces made redundant and its kit sold or mothballed.

And the £35bn clawed back from 'procurement'. I think you might be having evil, megalomaniac thoughts again ;)

Originally Posted by Sangreal

However! Once a competency (anything from MATTS to HT IEDD) is attained the Army has a system of testing/confirming these competencies be it through annual re-tests, time limited qualification etc etc. How is the Army to know that the TA bod who has the qualifications to be a barrister (for example) is any good at his job? He might, afterall, be an ambulance chasing nob-head with little experience of International Law etc etc.

The problem therefore is one of validation. Any realistic system of validation to support TA civ quals would require civilian firms/employers to report on their staff (a la OJAR) which would be beaureaucratic in the extreme and highly costly (who would pay firms for this extra work? How would employees like the Army to know exactly how they are performing in their civilian career? Again etc etc!)

Therefore, if you want to be a lawyer in green - join the ALS. If you join the infantry with a degree in International Developoment don't be put off if COMISAF isn't knocking on your door for assistance, unless of course he wants someone to do an infantry task!

Love the way you're thinking outside the box there, Sangreal. That's a well-argued case for rigidity (oo-er, matron, etc.).

The Cabinet Office/FCO/DFID Stabilisation Unit maintain a collated database of civilian experts' qualifications. They use it on a case-by-case basis to trawl for people to with relevant expertise for nation-building tasks. They approach them with a description of the task to see if they are available/willing to do it. From the cohort of people identified in this way, they then pick out those with the skills that most closely match the task. They do not require the experts' employers do disclose their last five years' annual reports or to retest them on quals.

So it ain't rocket science (although if it were, I know a rocket scientist who is in the TA and who would be able to help), and the Army has managed to get it right occasionally: see here.

Originally Posted by Mr_Bridger

I don't see a two tier TA as either sustainable, desirable or cost effective.

It would not be "two-tier". The use of the civilian capabilties of SNCOs and of officers would justify keeping them on, in their current roles within a TA chain of command.

That's an integrated, one-tier model which would enable the flick back to a TA geared for contingency ops/LSDI should that day ever come.

The alternatives are:

(a) a one-tier TA consisting of Ptes, LCpls and 2Lts administered by RTCs; or
(b) no TA.

I get the strong feeling that plenty of people posting on this forum seem to think it is somehow more noble to go down on the burning ship of an outmoded TA than to adapt what they offer to the COIN fight.

Originally Posted by Dr_Evil

I get the strong feeling that plenty of people posting on this forum seem to think it is somehow more noble to go down on the burning ship of an outmoded TA than to adapt what they offer to the COIN fight.

I think most would welcome some strategic direction on what the army would like to see the TA become and see how that fits into their life.

MSR

Originally Posted by Dr_Evil

The alternatives are:

(a) a one-tier TA consisting of Ptes, LCpls and 2Lts administered by RTCs; or
(b) no TA.

I get the strong feeling that plenty of people posting on this forum seem to think it is somehow more noble to go down on the burning ship of an outmoded TA than to adapt what they offer to the COIN fight.

I have no doubt what you propose will come true in some form or another but it's not the format of the future TA.

You've excluded, as most of us have, the combat service support arms. I can't see them changing all that much.

a. CSS arms as per pre Oct TA (can we have some CSS reps backing this up??? surely you know about this website?????)

b. CS fuzzy area but maybe as above.

c. Combat arms as per post Oct TA (with maybe SNCO's and officers getting paid for weekends once they move over to CIMIC role - as per Dr Evil thoughts)

The 'no TA' discounted because of the CSS TA roles. If any TA units start paid training I'd expect it'd be CSS.

Originally Posted by Dr_Evil

Originally Posted by Mr_Bridger

Given that the MoD is not planning on LSDI in the short and medium terms, it therefore has no requirement for any sizeable CIMIC capability (regular or reserve!)?

... or indeed any military capability for anything other than COIN.

If this argument is correct, and if the MOD really means what it says about making Afghanistan the main effort of Defence then the TA should be put out to pasture and the vast bulk of the Armed Forces made redundant and its kit sold or mothballed.

I heard a very similar line being touted pre the last SDR - and the sub-text was that the future of the TA was very solidly linked to the future of anything with heavy armour or a desire for a bit of "high intensity". If our colleagues in LAND are willing to settle on having just a COIN Op ( I love that phrase, so 1960s gas meter) capability then fine. The UK can get in line to draw its float and arm-bands, because as far as the US is concerned we will be non-swimmers.

Originally Posted by polar

You've excluded, as most of us have, the combat service support arms. I can't see them changing all that much.

a. CSS arms as per pre Oct TA (can we have some CSS reps backing this up??? surely you know about this website?????)

b. CS fuzzy area but maybe as above.

c. Combat arms as per post Oct TA (with maybe SNCO's and officers getting paid for weekends once they move over to CIMIC role - as per Dr Evil thoughts)

The 'no TA' discounted because of the CSS TA roles. If any TA units start paid training I'd expect it'd be CSS.

Can you give a little more detail on why a TA capability in CSS and CS is so essential, and the way in which it has been and will be used, in the current and future (reshaped) COIN effort?

Originally Posted by Dr_Evil

The Cabinet Office/FCO/DFID Stabilisation Unit maintain a collated database of civilian experts' qualifications. They use it on a case-by-case basis to trawl for people to with relevant expertise for nation-building tasks. They approach them with a description of the task to see if they are available/willing to do it. From the cohort of people identified in this way, they then pick out those with the skills that most closely match the task. They do not require the experts' employers do disclose their last five years' annual reports or to retest them on quals.

Handy considering the vast bulk of the TA come from companies under 25 strong! Just how many specialists and in what areas do the MoD believe they will get their hands on at any given time?

Originally Posted by Dr_Evil

Originally Posted by Mr_Bridger

I don't see a two tier TA as either sustainable, desirable or cost effective.

It would not be "two-tier". The use of the civilian capabilties of SNCOs and of officers would justify keeping them on, in their current roles within a TA chain of command.

That's an integrated, one-tier model which would enable the flick back to a TA geared for contingency ops/LSDI should that day ever come.

The alternatives are:

(a) a one-tier TA consisting of Ptes, LCpls and 2Lts administered by RTCs; or
(b) no TA.

I get the strong feeling that plenty of people posting on this forum seem to think it is somehow more noble to go down on the burning ship of an outmoded TA than to adapt what they offer to the COIN fight.

[/quote]

Based on what I've read on these boards over the last week or so, i'm beginning to believe that maybe we should just do the decent thing and end the TA pain quickly, rather than leaving it in the corridor of Krankenhaus MoD, waiting for Dr Mengele and his main building hoarde to performing inept surgery without consultation or anaesthetic.

The downside would be a huge loss to those who have served and are serving, or have made innumerous sacrifices to do so.

The upside would be happy been counters, a huge pile of real estate that could be added to the Govt garage sale, and thousands of PSIs who could be returned to the Regular Army or discharged. This would take a huge chunk out of consultancy fees that we will inevitably pay out to KBR etc.

Originally Posted by Dr_Evil

So it ain't rocket science (although if it were, I know a rocket scientist who is in the TA and who would be able to help).

So did I. I wonder if it was the same person - Cpl type, hung out with some Yeomanry Signals near the eastern end of the M40?

Used to cause great hilarity when visiting instructors would say, "it aint rocket science, ladies & gents!" Class would reply, "don't worry, Staff, Cpl X will explain if it is..."