Originally Posted by Whiskey_60

Originally Posted by Dwarf

Originally Posted by freedomman

Obviously, it's down to the CoC to decide whether individuals are ready to go or not. Most are not flagged as available until they've got about twelve months service or so after they're badged.

It's drummed into us from very early on in the recruitment phase that we're joining up to deploy. This is reinforced constantly throughout training.

A couple of things strike me from that. The first is that they seem to want to get the lads through and out to theatre quickly, a sign of need perhaps?
If you join to deploy then the expression used above 'casual labour' fits perfectly. Surely if the rationale of a person joining the TA was to get into action then he should go Reg. Shows how the nature of the TA has been changed by the Government from being an insurance to a cheaper way of keeping the Regs numbers up.

Also is it right to send a lad to deploy so soon after training when he has little experience? I would have thought that you wanted someone with a bit of time under his belt and who knew a bit more about what he was doing rather than a new lad. If then the wastage is as bad as stated then the policy and/or implementation is wrong.

For the Infantry this is where PDT comes in, yes we may have Phase 1 + 2'd them in 3-4 months but PDT ensures they are (normally) at the right standard to deploy. Those that aren't are RTU'd.

Definately. Time at unit really counts for feck all - it is time in trade that matters, whatever that trade may be.

Do not just count the MTDs paid - look closely at what those MTDs were awarded for, then discount the "wasted" ones. AT, Remembrance, recruiting, etc are all worthwhile activities but "wasted" in terms of training for deployment.

3 months intensive PDT, or a year at unit spent wisely on training courses and exercises beats 2 years at unit on jollies every time.

Originally Posted by HE117

My problem in my end of the swamp is that I am not seeing recruits through the system in less then 18 months! Over two years in some cases...

I then have to trade train them before they are of any use, which takes more time.

I for one, do not see why they cannot turn round recruits in 6 months across the board..

Depends on the unit, surely? For a start, 4 Para recruits have to do P Company on top off their weekends and CIC. Recruits for 21/23 take approx. one year from the start of Selection to being Badged. And that's for those who have previous military experiance; those who don't have to pass CIC before they even start Hills.

Try re-thinking this without a TA CoC.

Rumour that some TA sub-units will be rationalised into reg units. Read the bits in the review about:-
- rationalising the defence estate.
- the TA CoC being too complex.
- better trained volunteer.
- dropping of the "V" bit - recommendation seventy something.
- COs of TA units to be the best candidate for the job - Reg or TA - how can a TA Offr compete. End of the TA Officer stream.
- criticism of the OJAR/ SJAR admin burden on the TA CoC.

Expect to see sub units accross the country become an extra company / squadron to a reg unit and all trg/ admin taken over by a regular "cadre" staff (probably NPRS cos they are dirt cheap).

So the model of your boss being a young graduate at BT is a thing of the past. Your new boss will be an ex-reg SNCO on a bonus based system to get you on Ops in six months - numbers will count - and if you aren't prepared to bin the family holidays, or miss the government target ..... you'll be binned.

Inf/ RAC cap badges to go as well.

Devils' in the details lads.

Originally Posted by Werewolf

Originally Posted by HE117

My problem in my end of the swamp is that I am not seeing recruits through the system in less then 18 months! Over two years in some cases...

I then have to trade train them before they are of any use, which takes more time.

I for one, do not see why they cannot turn round recruits in 6 months across the board..

Depends on the unit, surely? For a start, 4 Para recruits have to do P Company on top off their weekends and CIC. Recruits for 21/23 take approx. one year from the start of Selection to being Badged. And that's for those who have previous military experiance; those who don't have to pass CIC before they even start Hills.

Yes - start to finish in around 5 - 6 months, so it can be done.

Originally Posted by The_Duke

Originally Posted by Werewolf

Originally Posted by HE117

My problem in my end of the swamp is that I am not seeing recruits through the system in less then 18 months! Over two years in some cases...

I then have to trade train them before they are of any use, which takes more time.

I for one, do not see why they cannot turn round recruits in 6 months across the board..

Depends on the unit, surely? For a start, 4 Para recruits have to do P Company on top off their weekends and CIC. Recruits for 21/23 take approx. one year from the start of Selection to being Badged. And that's for those who have previous military experiance; those who don't have to pass CIC before they even start Hills.

Yes - start to finish in around 5 - 6 months, so it can be done.

I stand corrected, Your Grace. But it still is'nt going to work with UKSF(R). If memory serves, the Hills Phase alone of 21/23 takes almost six months. Then of course there is Continuation on top of that.

SBS(R) are different; they put their recruits through Hills alongside the Regs. They do a full month, those who pass then do Continuation at training weekends, camps etc.

Originally Posted by The_Duke

Originally Posted by Werewolf

Originally Posted by HE117

....

...

Yes - start to finish in around 5 - 6 months, so it can be done.

Six months for a normal 4 para recruit then PDT. SSRE (gap year scheme) is getting recruits to a battalion quicker than that.

The question then lies, what are the TA doing differently to ITC Catterick in order to create deployable troops in half the time (and money). Is the government just viewing this as a cheap way to train troops?

Does this essentially turn the TA into an adventure holiday agency for people who want to do a tour but not join up properely? There may be a pool of people attracted to the idea of taking a gap year/sabbatical and doing a tour but is it sustainable long term?

Read the report of reserves correctly - the quote refers to recruit ready to take part in worthwhile unit training by the 6 month point, not ready to don Osprey and go on patrol.

Originally Posted by fraudstar

The question then lies, what are the TA doing differently to ITC Catterick in order to create deployable troops in half the time (and money). Is the government just viewing this as a cheap way to train troops?

Does this essentially turn the TA into an adventure holiday agency for people who want to do a tour but not join up properely? There may be a pool of people attracted to the idea of taking a gap year/sabbatical and doing a tour but is it sustainable long term?

Ironically, the premise behind the "Half Trained Troops to Fight The Taliban" article last year... ho hum.

A perspective from an 'old and bold' returning to the new system. I joined originally in 1986 (when we still had 58 pat webbing and SLR's....Oops, went all nostalgic then!) and left in 2001. I am now going through the new system and have to say that it terrifies me, as a rifleman, how little field skills are being taught prior to going on CIC. Whilst I am yet to go to Catterick, they will have to pack in an awful lot more in the two alloted weeks than the Old Light Div did back in 87 and that was bloody intense! (Cpl's Bob and Dagger, are you still out there?)

It seems to me that the TA is now very much being used as a conveyor belt to supplement the regulars who, like the TA, cannot retain people due to over stretch and undervaluing by the Government. I am quite happy that my previous experience would prepare me for Op's plus the 'refresher basic' I am now on BUT; I am seriously concerned for the fresh faced civvies who are going through with me, who might be deploying anywhere remotely dodgy without a great deal more work.

Ready to deploy in six months? Not a hope! Most TA cannot give the time required/ suffer injuries and get back squadded, as has already been mentioned and will not be ready to deploy without a great deal of further training.
Ready for meaningful training in 6 months? Definately, in fact, IMO guys should be out with their units immediately after attestation to get them used to fitting in and seing how it works on the ground. My first weekend ever in the TA was spent at the end of a major exercise (Brave defender?) p!ss wet through in sub zero temperatures on the Lizard in Cornwall, manning a GPMG sentry position with an old and bold of the company. We got bumped by the Para's/ fusiliers (never did find out who) at 3 in the morning and had a hell of a firefight. It took weeks to get the silly grin off my face and I never looked back. I learned more about soldiering that weekend than I have in four weekends of phase 1 so far.

Training needs to be more focussed on basic infantry skills early on and recruits need to be out on the ground with competent instructors/ seasoned squaddies from day one.

As for employers; they need more help. Being self employed and an employer, I can give myself time off but this comes at an immense cost. If I had an employee who wanted to join the TA, I would, if I am honest, have a real concern wbout employing them (and I try to be a huge "recruiting serjeant" for my unit). The system needs to change!

Know that this is a few days old, but thought I would add what I've been told.
My training is starting mid-July (hopefully after sorting out all of my problems thus far) and I have been told, even have it in writing, that I will be capable of deploying around April next year in my role as a CMT if I pass all of my training at first oppotunity.