Originally Posted by Jagythistle

Originally Posted by Bravo_Bravo

The main effort of the OTC concerns giving future Captains of Industry an exposure to the Military.

This seems to have been forgotten by some posters here who view the OTC as vital to UKLF.

Seconded until someone with enough clout has the desire to or will to change it

There's the rub. The OTC's primary justification for its existence has been greatly eroded by the expansion of participation in higher education.

Back when the OTCs were established, the small share of the population (10% in 1940 - see the graph on page 7 of this:
http://www.hepi.ac.uk/downloads/31HE...beyondfull.pdf) who went into higher education were relatively much more likely than they are now to end up as captains of industry.

Back then, a university degree (accorded to substantially fewer than the 10% I just mentioned - that figure includes all forms of higher education) was a good predictor of eventual position in the social and industrial hierarchy. That simply cannot be as true when, as is the case now, some 70% of the relevant population cohort attend higher education of one kind or another. Seventy per cent! They can't all be boss.

With a university degree in itself no longer as useful indicator (although overall grade and the university attended do add to the picture), targeting people for this PR effort simply because they are at university makes much less sense than it used to.

So the OTC needs to make good on the other justification for its existence: namely, producing officers, both regular and TA.

All this piffle about how much fun the OTC is compared with the TA is completely beside the point.

Originally Posted by gun-bunny

yes but look at life courses last what? 1 week? that doesn't really give you much insight into the army, or the chance to do any realistic training.

Of course some OTCers just join for the fun stuff, that's the way it's sold to them. Recruitment tells them all about the fun training, the big toys they get to play with, and the AT opportunities, but fails to mention the 2am stag on Castlelaw in the middle of winter. But that's same as any other type of army recruitment, that's why we appreciate the chance to meet with regular soldiers and go on attachments with them.

The traffic light system could work. Our CO is looking at making all 1st years go on a brief, as yet i don't know if this will happen, and if it does what will happen if they get cat 4. However, as the COs are being put under pressure to produce so many new commisions each year, i'm sure they're also under pressure to reach recruitment and retention targets as well. Therefore to meet these targets they let cadets carry on to 2nd year even if they think they are not officer material. They may still join as OR, ok this doesn't solve the problem of the shortage of YO, but it's another recruit for the army that they probably wouldn't have got otherwise.

Yes i agree about the medical, but the OTC don't set the criteria, they are carried out at a med centre.

Yet, strangely look at life is seen as an effective tool for recruitment for soldiers. Who still join the Army despite the lack of realisitic training.

Fcuking hell, I must represent serious value for money from the Army. I've served 15+ years on the strength of an open day at Fulwood Barracks and a few episodes of Squadie Squadie.

No three year courtship for my good self. With a good few grand chucked down for good measure.....

Don't worry Junglism, I am sure Army Club will last some time yet... Alas too many of our hierachy have enjoyed themselves in OTC over the years, so will doubtless see this money pit continue.

In the vain hope that the less than 1% of the campus it actually canvasses join up and follow the flag...

so in other words - look at life is aimed at recruiting OR, and the OTC is aimed at recruiting officers, so sending OTC cadets on look at life would not solve the problem of a shortage of YO.

As look at life is only 1 week long, i imagine the majority of people attending it are already pretty serious about joining the army anyway. Whereas the OTC aims to inticse people who are have not necessarily considered joining the army.

And yes and i doubt the OTC will last for many more years yet, and yes the majority of officers, WOs that join us have a good time whike they're there, which in turn makes it more enjoyable for the cadets, hence why they stay there instead of moving onto a TA unit.

Originally Posted by Jungelism

but they obviously work, having survived 100 years.

And rubbing 2 sticks together to make fire has been around for thousands - doesn't make it the best way of doing it the 21st century though does it?

MSR

Originally Posted by Dr_Evil

There's the rub. The OTC's primary justification for its existence has been greatly eroded by the expansion of participation in higher education.

Eroded? Or strengthened?

After all, if 50% of youth are going to do something like spend three years in an ex-polytechnic skiving their way through a politics, media studies or business degree, then shouldn't we be in there recruiting even harder? Or are you trying to say that the Army should only try to recruit ORs from the 50% of youth who couldn't get into university?

First rule of recruiting - go where the talent is. If the talent is going to tertiary education...

I mean, there isn't an Deutsche Bank club, or a British Aerospace club, that has three years of chances to persuade them that theirs is a viable career - the universities wouldn't allow such transparent recruiting efforts from eeeevil multinationals on-campus. They'd probably try to attract the best and brightest by dressing up their recruitment as something else, and insisting that it was merely a "youth conference" or "sponsored sporting event"; provide lashings of booze and a healthy mix of genders; and persuade the recruits, sorry competitors that theirs was a nice firm full of thoroughly decent types. Hold on a minute, that sounds familiar...

Originally Posted by gun-bunny

Of course some OTCers just join for the fun stuff, that's the way it's sold to them. Recruitment tells them all about the fun training, the big toys they get to play with, and the AT opportunities, but fails to mention the 2am stag on Castlelaw in the middle of winter.

awwww popsicles... hard life isn't it! lying down doing sod all for an hour then going back to bed!

Originally Posted by gun-bunny

so in other words - look at life is aimed at recruiting OR, and the OTC is aimed at recruiting officers, so sending OTC cadets on look at life would not solve the problem of a shortage of YO.

there's an officer look at life week.

i don't have a problem with the OTC itself, just the money we waste on it. and the fact that you think it's justified.

i'm not trying to make out it's a hard life, i'm merely pointing out that the reason people only join for the fun stuff is because the fun stuff is all they're told about during recruitment.

Well maybe the problem is with advertising. How many people have heard of an officer look at life week? I certainly haven't, and i'm pretty sure the majority of my OTC haven't. If it's such a viable option for providing new YO, why don't people know about it? Why aren't they at fresher's fayres recruiting people onto them?

Maybe you could enlighten us as to how much we actually waste on the OTC? Though i suspect not, it's no good whinging about this waste of money/inappropriate funding if you do even know the amount of money in question.

well you say there are 4000 people in the OTC right? and what you on, £40 a day? so you all do 27 days (for example, thats our bounty requirement number, i expect you can't be far out) that's 4000x40 (160,000) per day the OTC does, so across 27 that coughs up 4,320,000.

if everyone does 27 days you cost us 4 and half million quid before permanent staff, food, transport, weapons, ammo, equipment, fuel, clothing, utilities and the rest of it.

so no, i don't know the exact figure. but you can get a shedload of kit for the TA for that £4.3m alone. instead, even the best part of the TA Royal Signals are still driving around in early 80s LR110s (not even wolfs) with even older Clansman kit in the back. Im sure £4.3m can buy a fair few wagons and a fair few Bowman sets.

Originally Posted by gun-bunny

Well maybe the problem is with advertising. How many people have heard of an officer look at life week? I certainly haven't, and i'm pretty sure the majority of my OTC haven't. If it's such a viable option for providing new YO, why don't people know about it? Why aren't they at fresher's fayres recruiting people onto them?

I babysat some OTCs on exercise... They were with us for a week. Looking at how the Corps' functions. THey came out to Germany for it.

So they were looking at the Army life... for about a week. I think it was called a familiarisation visit or something.



Solution 1.

An ACF stylee parade during the week, the odd weekend exercise (fcuk all this MOD1-2 malarky off) and a few visits to RMAS and by various recruiting teams.

Then at the end of year one, those who like playing about and getting wet can still stay on in the ACF stylee. The others can attempt to join the OTC. On offer is a small amount of pay, a few AOSB type boards for filtering, and lots of lessons.

During the holiday period lots of fam visits to units, and of course some nice exercises and what not at RMAS or similar.

After two years of that, of to RMAS for polishing, and out to the units.

I reckon that would work much better. If the Unis get uppity, move the OTC to a nearby, off campus building.

Those that enjoy the craic of ACF activities can do all that ad infinitum for as long as they are at Uni. Maybe even come back as an AI. Lots of community service onthe Campus and around it, bit of sport as per the normal ACF.

That would mean... lots of people informed about the Army, and a healthy supply of YOs to the Forces.