Thread: 'Baron' Castleshort Part 2

OK, the old thread was getting too big, so let's crack-on here...

Normal rules apply: stay on topic and don't post when p1ssed.

CP

Good move.


FOR THE ATTENTION OF ANY NEWBIES;

If the delightful world of Baron Castleshort is new to you may I suggest that you do one or both of the following before making your first post;

1) Read the 200 pages of the “main” thread in the Stickies area

And/or

2) Read the ARRSEpedia article at –
http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/The_Baron_of_Castleshort

And just in case any newbies to the thread get confused or find themselves swayed with all the "photographic evidence" of jumbo's claims to being awarded his bling as the real McCoy, watch these vids to see how it's really done:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OtgHFaX6x0

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...ds/7699156.stm

And when you get to the last radio interview 17 NOV 08, where jumbo says, he'd never take a bullet for a client/principle just watch and read what real soldiers do. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjF1O...eature=related

To recap briefly:

Jumbo's service number has appeared, 24550634. As with everything else about jumbo, it doesn't quite mesh with his claims to being badged in 1976 as a para, nor does it mesh with when he claims he left the TA.

Personal accounts have surfaced that jumbo participated in pay-as-you-jump parachute organizations that walt as real military jumpers. If you match up his claims to his OP timetable, you'll see they were running courses in the same areas at the same time.

Sandy_Boots in a paintakingly examination of all recorded MoD jumps could not find Shortt's name on any list.

Also have a read of Shortt's dubious claims at: http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/List_of_...Dubious_Claims

If you are wondering where Shortt picked up his expert knowledge of Counter-terrorism read the few pages in his book, Special Air Squadron.

From: http://www.ospreypublishing.com/stor..._9780850453966
About this book
Since its birth at Kabrti in 1941, the Special Air Service has consistently captured the imagination of the military and public alike by the daring and unconventional nature of its operations. The nature of the tasks and the methods peculiar to the SAS have made it difficult to standardise items of equipment. Apart from issues common to the British Army as a whole, SAS personnel have need of, and access to, various specialised 'pieces of kit': often SAS innovations created to meet specific needs. James Shortt investigates the organisation, tactics, equipment and remarkable history of Britains elite fighting force.

Contents
Introduction · Origins · From Regiment to Brigade · The post-war SAS · 22nd SAS Regiment · The Fight Against Terrorism · RM Special Boat Squadron · Foreign SAS Units · The Plates

He wrote one chapter on it in a book published in 1981.

Thanks, niner. That should keep any new folk up to date.

I'm surprised there are no items appearing in newspapers about this, with the number of Journos who lurk here. (Apart from Private Eye, of course).

Is it too difficult to do real research, rather than accepting publicity puffs described as news, or pontificating about Celebrity Oh Lord They're On Telly Dancing again?

This would make a great spread in any worthwhile news journal.

200 pages is enough for me, plus what I and others have written about him over the years.

Private Eye and the Phoenix have him in their sights, my work here is done....

If anything REALLY exciting comes up, would one of you make a note to PM me? I have been at this guy for three years now, and if any more legal threats, press outings or threats of violence occur, I am interested, otherwise, best of luck to you all.

Beyond him coming up with a duff army number, I think the page94 moment on the old thread was the apogee of this excercise, the rest, no offence, is mainly wind, and covering old ground.

LI out.

As pointed out on the other Short(t) thread, the IBA also appear as an Affiliated Command of the Legion of Frontiersmen (click on Regiments tab).
If one clicks on the News tab and scrolls down, one finds that they do their "Operations" (Eagle - Italy - Asia) under the auspices of INTERNATIONAL AIRBORNE OPERATIONS.

Upcoming Ops can be found HERE

Originally Posted by rockape34

As pointed out on the other Short(t) thread, the IBA also appear as an Affiliated Command of the Legion of Frontiersmen (click on Regiments tab).
If one clicks on the News tab and scrolls down, one finds that they do their "Operations" (Eagle - Italy - Asia) under the auspices of INTERNATIONAL AIRBORNE OPERATIONS.

Upcoming Ops can be found HERE

I downloaded the application form for LoF ... just out of curiousity. You appear to need referees. I find that a bit of a shame, as I was considering really joining [purely in the interest of research].

Gentlemen and ladies apologies for not furnishing anything further on the Army Record apart from the number - unfortunately work has kept me from contacting my source - thank many of you for the DOB i will pursue more info after the weekend - being slightly unsure of legal repercussions when i get the paper docs shall i publish here or just make available to the key individuals by PM ?

Mach

On behalf of a new friend ...

Originally Posted by fantassin

A little help from France....

Having read "Lucien Ott"'s biography there,

www.ibabodyguards.hu/e...viktor_ott

I have found several errors:

First of all, his Indochina services don't add up:

-"Lucien joined the newly formed French Para-commandos serving in the 2nd Demi-Brigade SAS in Indochina"; there was only one Brigade de Parachutistes SAS in Indochina, from 1946 to 1949. It was then renamed 1ere demi-brigade coloniale de commandos parachutistes. There was never a "2nd Demi-Brigade SAS"

- "then with the 8 BCCP under Col Bigeard. He volunteered to parachute into Dien Bien Phu where he was wounded and captured by the Viet Minh. He escaped and joined the GCMA a military intelligence operation organising Montagnard resistance groups".

So it means that Ott served non-stop in Indochina from at least 1949 (renaming of the Demi-brigade SAS) to the end of Dien Bien Phu in May 1954...so that's a five years tour when the norm was two years...maybe he returned to France and came back for a second tour, as many did, but this remains a mystery.

-He did not need to volunteer for Dien Bien Phu as both units he is supposed to have served in (Bigeard's unit and the mistakenly named 8°BCCP, in the fact the 8°BPC see below) jumped over DBP (Bigeard's unit even jumping twice, but that's another story). Those who volunteered to jump were not in airborne units and decided they prefered to jump without previous training and die with their friends in DBP rather than just sit and watch.

-The 8°BCCP in which he is supposed to have served in Indochina has never existed....there was a 8°BPC but it was was not under the command of Commandant Bigeard (Bigeard was the CO of the 6°BPC) but of Capitaine Tourret.

-He is supposed to have escaped to the GCMA while being a POW...I found no trace of that. GCMA units were made of SF types (often former Free French Jedburghs advising and leading Mountain tribes hostile to the Communists; some fought until 1957 while France left Indochina in 1954)

-Général de Monsabert MC who is supposed to have put together de Gaulle CP unit retired from the army in 1946, just after WW2. De Gaulle came back to power in 1958 !

-De Gaulle's bodyguards belonged to the police (like Raymond Sassia) or to the Gendarmerie (like Francis Marroux, de Gaulle's driver for years); when de Gaulle resigned in 1969, they were not "given the option of being absorbed by the Gendarmerie or leaving" since they already belonged to both corps

-I have not found a reference to a Mr Tinet in the entourage of General de Gaulle

Hoping this helps....

It raises the interesting possibility that Shortt is, himself, the victim of a 'Walt-spiral' in which he has believed Ott's bullshit and subsequently amplified it. I read of a similar case in Birkett's 'Stolen Valor' in which two fake Vietnam vets were each backing up each others bogus stories in order to validate their own lies, in the mistaken belief that the other was genuine. Maybe Ott and Shortt had a similar relationship?

Edited to add: if both were fakes, to one degree or another, neither would necessarily possess the 'toolkit' to see through the other's mendacity. It sounds like the plot for a Radio 4 afternoon play!

And another little gem; the SNCO rank of "Major" was only created in 1972 in the French armed forces.

Considering Ott's bio, he is supposed to have left his BG job with de Gaulle when Pdt Pompidou came to power in 1969 since he would have had to resign from the army and to join the Gendarmerie to keep his job.

"When Pompidou succeeded De Gaulle as President 'Les Gorilles' were given the option of being absorbed by the Gendarmerie or leaving"

http://www.ibabodyguards.com/index.p...d=13&Itemid=27

So, if he left the army in 1969, how could he hold a rank which was only created in 1972 ?

Reserve service maybe ? the problem is that, until 2009 when it will change,to access the rank of "Major", an "adjudant-chef" (WO1 in France) needs to take a difficult exam with only 5-6 man per speciality per year succeeding...only a select few were "chosen" (Major au choix" in french) because of outstanding services.

Maybe Ott was one of them....or maybe not.

Oh, FFS, cpunk ... you're going soft on him!

Seriously, and realistically, I could easily be persuaded that the multiple-failure in early life that is Shortt could easily be sucked in to the world of "pseudo-credentials" and a false persona.

Thank God I'm a real Baron, and duly notarised by a real Notary Public.

i recommend that next time the Arrse community outs such a major walt as Baron or Caubeen then we humour and them instead of outing them ASAP.

Imagine the fun we could have had if we'd invited The Baron down to do a guest lecture at a central London venue on his time in SF...if nothing else it would properly 'out' him, waste his time, and we could all go on the lash afterwards!

I'm not suggesting he's a 'victim' in the sense that we should feel sorry for him, simply that he was probably also duped by Ott - whom he appears to have had some genuine admiration for. It's quite funny really. My point is that as both appear to have built their careers on largely fake CV's, neither would have the technical ability to spot the other as a fake. :D