ARmy Rumour SErvice

**The_Duke** · 16-02-2012, 15:03

People mentioned earlier the comparisons with the RMP in Majar al Kabir. There are in fact 2 key similarities:

1. The NCOs leading the tasks knew that tensions were raised in the area, or at least they should have known. Large scale riots 2 days before in the case of the RMP; the Gibraltar Op and subsequent funeral with added Stone intervention for the R Signals case.

2. Despite this knowledge (or assumed knowledge), the two NCOs leading the tasks decided that they would ignore the standing orders and do what they thought was OK, rather than what they had been told to do. In the case of the RMP, a barely bothered flap sheet and patrol trace and ignoring to take the only form of comms which was 99% certain to work. In the case of the R Signals, taking an unneccessary sightseeing tour through a known high risk OOB area.

Sadly, the result in both cases is that the commanders died. For me, even more sad is the fact that they took other soldiers along with them to their deaths.

I am sure I will get all sorts of grief for this post, but the reality is harsh. If you want to buck the system or be selective about which bits of it you want to abide by, consider the consequences. Messing about with length of sidies, in and up vs out and down or any other such trivia results in a bollocking and some extras. Ignoring the bits mentioned above or otherwise cutting corners leaves the HQ element to do a lot of work to figure out if any friendly forces are actually at risk if anything starts to go wrong. This uncertainty causes delay in tasking the QRF which may, or may not, have some influence on whether they survive the event.

For me, that is the key lesson from both of these.

**Devon_Walker** · 16-02-2012, 15:19

A very large Soxmis vehicle, was seen blatantly driving round FTX locations, at least once that I remember.
Us old cold war warriors clocked russkies in BAOR and Berlin, or Helmstedt. Helmstedt was where we were offered russian badges for ten marks down the documents tray. Never ever spoke to a russian, daft when you think of it. Thing is, they were never any trouble or bother. Any trouble would have come from those DDR twonks. There's plenty of info, on that stuff.

Some that's done the Province, might have been caught out alone in a pub with the wrong sort, or worse..

We were in Omagh for the murders of Wood and Howes by rabid dogs, all fired up after Michael Stone had wasted (only) three of them at Milltown cemetery. Comical as it was, with him running off to the main road, Stone caused a lot of trouble, and years later had another go, at Stormont.

The Black Taxi and Scaley video's not pretty,( we never ever got in those Black Cabs back then, I still don't. But when you're trapped in the middle of those bastards there aint going to be much option is there, and the lads it's fair to say, were fairly restrained. But who knows what any of us would have done in those circumstances.

The story of some bloke twatting players who jumped him, are true. IIRC it was Derry, about '76.

**chocolate_frog** · 16-02-2012, 15:46

Originally Posted by Devon_Walker

Some that's done the Province, might have been caught out alone in a pub with the wrong sort.
Driven through Greysteel on the way to the Ports, gone shopping on Waterside, had a haircut, or shagged some bird off the Gobnascale.
Risks within reason, better than hiding in Camp.

We were in Omagh for the murders of Wood and Howes by rabid dogs, all fired up after Michael Stone had wasted (only) three of them at Milltown cemetery. Comical as it was, with him running off to the main road, Stone caused a lot of trouble, and years later had another go, at Stormont.

The Black Taxi and Scaley video's not pretty,( we never ever got in those Black Cabs back then, I still don't. But when you're trapped in the middle of those bastards there aint going to be much option is there, and the lads it's fair to say, were fairly restrained. But who knows what any of us would have done in those circumstances.

Are you suggesting they got in the cabs of their own volition?

None of the 'risks' you mentioned are 'within reason'.

**Alec_Lomas** · 16-02-2012, 15:47

Originally Posted by Devon_Walker

There was also the helicopter that filmed it all and did nothing. As several have said since, questions?

You really need to sit down and think over what you have just said. The helio did an enormous amount of work with the pilot operating at variance to what he was being instructed to do by ground control. He had a hard time following that incident. I take my hat off to the gent. He contributed in a big way to the successful prosecution of the murderers.

**target_stop** · 16-02-2012, 15:51

Originally Posted by Devon_Walker

A very large Soxmis vehicle, was seen blatantly driving round FTX locations, at least once that I remember.
Us old cold war warriors clocked russkies in BAOR and Berlin, or Helmstedt. Helmstedt was where we were offered russian badges for ten marks down the documents tray. Never ever spoke to a russian, daft when you think of it. Thing is, they were never any trouble or bother. Any trouble would have come from those DDR twonks. There's plenty of info, on that stuff.

Some that's done the Province, might have been caught out alone in a pub with the wrong sort.
Driven through Greysteel on the way to the Ports, gone shopping on Waterside, had a haircut, or shagged some bird off the Gobnascale.
Risks within reason, better than hiding in Camp.

We were in Omagh for the murders of Wood and Howes by rabid dogs, all fired up after Michael Stone had wasted (only) three of them at Milltown cemetery. Comical as it was, with him running off to the main road, Stone caused a lot of trouble, and years later had another go, at Stormont.

The Black Taxi and Scaley video's not pretty,( we never ever got in those Black Cabs back then, I still don't. But when you're trapped in the middle of those bastards there aint going to be much option is there, and the lads it's fair to say, were fairly restrained. But who knows what any of us would have done in those circumstances.

The story of some bloke twatting players who jumped him, are true.

There was also the helicopter that filmed it all and did nothing. As several have said since, questions?

Did you want the pilots to land and get out and deliver a swift and brutal "nose biffing".

**Devon_Walker** · 16-02-2012, 15:56

Okay bang out of order on the Heli . Apologies. Chocolate Frog , silly question about the cabs don't you think?
We all make experiences, decisions, and have different views, honest opinion but which doesn't have to cause offence and this did, apologies to all concerned and to the site.

**Mugatu** · 16-02-2012, 16:02

I was under the impression that they both acted bravely and fought like fuck when they realized their situation, right up to the end?

**steven seagull** · 16-02-2012, 16:05

Originally Posted by Alec_Lomas

You really need to sit down and think over what you have just said. The helio did an enormous amount of work with the pilot operating at variance to what he was being instructed to do by ground control. He had a hard time following that incident. I take my hat off to the gent. He contributed in a big way to the successful prosecution of the murderers.

I can't even begin to imagine what it must have been like for that pilot to have to watch those events knowing that the only thing he could do was try to get some good footage of the murderers and keep some kind of commentary going. Awful.

I imagine its haunted him ever since and I agree he deserves a lot of respect rather than digs about him not landing on the nearest roof and diving in like Bruce Lee.

**Markintime** · 16-02-2012, 16:10

Originally Posted by steven seagull

I can't even begin to imagine what it must have been like for that pilot to have to watch those events knowing that the only thing he could do was try to get some good footage of the murderers and keep some kind of commentary going. Awful.

I imagine its haunted him ever since and I agree he deserves a lot of respect rather than digs about him not landing on the nearest roof and diving in like Bruce Lee.

I doubt he even knew the true horror of what he was witnessing until he could see the films, he still had to fly and concentrate on that. Realistically there was absolutely nothing he could have done although, as you say, it must have cut deep to be so impotent when such is unfolding below you.

**cloudbuster** · 16-02-2012, 16:13

Originally Posted by Devon_Walker

There was also the helicopter that filmed it all and did nothing.

Much to the frustration of the crew, they were unable to assist in any way other than to keep broadcasting. They had nothing onboard other than their PPW and a BFO box of electronics. Don't assume that they sat there twiddling their thumbs.