ARmy Rumour SErvice

**Astatine** · 12-08-2012, 05:07

There is a whole book by D.Hawley "The Death of Wingate".

In conspiracy prone Israel they say he was murdered. In Israel Wingate is revered, with towns being named after him. In the 30s he had helped the nascent Israeli Army in Palestine fight the Arabs.

Churchill said that "he was a man of destiny who if he had lived would have become a man of greatness". As a Christian Zionist Bible-basher, would the fact that he would have gone on to help the Jews in Palestine have been reason for anyone to have him done away with?

"Wingate saw himself as a boot up the backside of Man. The fact that most of his ideas ran directly against those of his superiors did not worry him in the slightest."
(Arthur Swinson)

**norwegianwiking** · 12-08-2012, 06:38

i doubt there would have been that great a desire to do him in at the time, i'm not well versed in the pre-israel troubles in Palestine, but i doubt anyone had specific plans for the creation of Israel at the time, or that others who were aware of those plans were assassinating random people who were supportive of a Jewish state in Palestine.

**Maalox** · 10-09-2012, 20:13

"Did the British kill Orde Wingate?"
Did the British kill Orde Wingate? (Part I) | Jerusalem Post - Blogs

**Stonker** · 10-09-2012, 21:40

Originally Posted by Maalox

"Did the British kill Orde Wingate?"
Did the British kill Orde Wingate? (Part I) | Jerusalem Post - Blogs

Tinfoil yarmulke is in order, for the author of that load of bolleaux.

**Goatman** · 10-09-2012, 22:38

Originally Posted by Provost

That sounds like the 'Welbike', which was developed by an R&D department of the SOE based at The Frythe in Welwyn. I don't think that thhe SOE themselves had much use for it.

Unlike the 'Wel-rod'.....which as I understand it , remains unsurpassed as a single shot ,virtually silent tool for ...er...offing the ungodly

**Stonker** · 10-09-2012, 23:45

Originally Posted by Goatman

Unlike the 'Wel-rod'.....which as I understand it , remains unsurpassed as a single shot ,virtually silent tool for ...er...offing the ungodly

Do I detect just a hint of Leslie Charteris finding its way into your style there, Don Cabra?

**baboon6** · 11-09-2012, 00:50

Originally Posted by Stonker

Tinfoil yarmulke is in order, for the author of that load of bolleaux.

Quite. We're into Princess Diana territory there...

**Yank_Lurker** · 11-09-2012, 02:10

Originally Posted by seaweed

Catch was, that all sorts of far-out ideas were being floated during WW2. Leaving out Churchill's eager backing for anything that was away from the norm (starting in WW1 with the Dardanelles), of those that got through we had (for instance)

Wildly successful:
-------------------
Mulberry harbours
PLUTO
Hobart's funnies/flail tanks
A wooden aeroplane aka the Mosquito
Whittle's jet engines
Horsa gliders
Don Bennet's idea of Bomber Command Pathfinders
The 20mm Oerlikon gun, pooh-poohed because it 'fired' before the breech was fully closed
The atom bomb - nobody could really guarantee it would work
Razeeing a destroyer to ram the St Nazaire lock gates
Barnes Wallis' bombs .. all these had to be pushed past the nay-sayers

Total failure:
-------------
Pykrete (ice and wood chip 'aircraft carriers')
Unrotated Rocket Projectiles
The Grand Panjandrum
the Admiralty's Bombardon pontoons
and, later on, High Test Peroxide

and some in between like folding motor scooters for Paras. etc etc.

and who knows what that would have been helpful but never got tried?

Consensus sems to be that Chindits were a waste of resource (whioch does not imply ANY disrespect for the poor sods who did the job) but seemed to some a good idea at the time.

Churchill also used two razeed destroyers packed with US Rangers to attempt coup de mains against Vichy French harbors during Operation TORCH. Both attempts were utter bloodbaths.

**baboon6** · 11-09-2012, 02:29

Originally Posted by Yank_Lurker

Churchill also used two razeed destroyers packed with US Rangers to attempt coup de mains against Vichy French harbors during Operation TORCH. Both attempts were utter bloodbaths.

The ships were ex-US Coast Guard cutters which had been turned over to the Royal Navy. The men on board, besides the RN crews, were mainly from the 6th Armored Inf Regt, US 1st Armored Div; there were also some US Navy and Marines personnel, and some British Special Boat Section men. An account of Operation Reservist can be found here, about a third of the way down:

HyperWar: US Army in WWII: Northwest Africa: Seizing the Initiative In the West

The casualties were indeed horrendous- over 200 Americans and over 100 Brits killed. Don't know if Churchill had anything to do with it personally. It certainly wasn't a very good idea whoever thought of it. The commander of the operation, Capt Frederick Peters RN, was awarded the VC and US DSC but was killed in an air crash on his way back to the UK:

Capt. Frederick Thornton Peters - Veterans Affairs Canada

**Yank_Lurker** · 11-09-2012, 02:32

It's been several years since I read "An Army At Dawn," but I seem to recall the author stating that Churchill had personally championed the idea. US troops were used in the belief that while the French were still angry at the Brits over Op CATAPULT, they wouldn't fire on Americans.