ARmy Rumour SErvice

Originally Posted by oldbaldy

Each generation derides the ones before or the one after.
'They don't know how easy they have/had it'
Since WW2 squaddies have bcome more and more isolated from 'civvies', we know that those coming back from Afganistan have problem because their civive mates cannot relate to what when on but then again, looking back the same could be said for: Korea, Malaya, Aden, Dohar, Brunei etc & my own era NI. We have always been pushed, the difference now is 24 hours news!!!!

It depends what context. Personally for me, I have a lot of respect for those who served in NI in the 70s and 80s. Being an Ammo Tech, much of my trades history in the IED disposal role is from NI and I'm certainly full of admiration for the IEDD operators of that period. I also have great respect for the capability of the PIRA.

One thing particularly grieves me about NI and that is none of the IEDD operators killed there received gallantry awards.

We have always been pushed, but it's how we react to it and I feel we have reacted as we always have by showing ourselves in the best light and producing brilliant results.

I also feel we have plenty in the tank, units and individuals are still wanting to go to Afghanistan to do their job, I relished the work and had I not been injured I would have completed at least another two tours by now.

Originally Posted by dingerr

[snip]I also feel we have plenty in the tank, units and individuals are still wanting to go to Afghanistan to do their job, I relished the work and had I not been injured I would have completed at least another two tours by now.

In the American Civil War, they coined the phrase 'Going to see the elephant' - a big, mysterious, dangerous thing.

'Seeing the elephant' once was enough for most.

The novelty wears away, for even the most hard core - look at the change in the tone of FSJ's posts on the topic over the last 3 - 4 years, as a f'rinstance.

I worry that 'doing the job' is never going to change things in AFG: we're planning our getaway for 2014, the Spams will be out not long after, and (O! BTW!) the Afghan president has just recently announced that he is going to shave about 1/3 off the size of his Army and Police (the ones the Septic taxpayers has funded), even as ISAF is filing out the door marked 'Exit'.

What a f#ckin' waste.

Originally Posted by oldbaldy

Each generation derides the ones before or the one after.
'They don't know how easy they have/had it'

We have always been pushed, the difference now is 24 hours news!!!!

There are references in both fiction and academic writing to soldiers injuring themselves deliberately in order to get back to blighty.

There is a famous WW1 story about an experienced soldier doing handstand on the fire step until an obliging German sniper shot him through the leg.

Sorry to quote him again, but Britain's most famous WWII shell shock victim, Spike Milligan, describes how a soldier on a train shoots himself in the leg on a train to avoid the front.

I bet someone on here could tell me a self wounding story from NI era, I heard about a suicide in a Sanger.

I witnessed one very dubious 'ND' on Herrick which resulted in a bullet through the firer's foot, and there were other stories.

So I fully agree with you.

As I have said, fear is part of the human condition, PTSD is an individual's response to fear. I agree with the post that says we all have a credit of courage which is spent in action. I disagree that this is influenced by a change in culture over the years. The response to fear is a base animal survival instinct, it is 'evolutionary', we are born with it, it is not taught.

Originally Posted by Mr_Snakey

[snip]As I have said, fear is part of the human condition, PTSD is an individual's response to fear. I agree with the post that says we all have a credit of courage which is spent in action. I disagree that this is influenced by a change in culture over the years. The response to fear is a base animal survival instinct, it is 'evolutionary', we are born with it, it is not taught.

We may have to agree to disagree: I'm inclined to a view that culture very much determines what is and is not acceptable behaviour in the face of fear.

The same school of thought that sees mental/moral collapse as an inevitable consequence of prolonged exposure to mortal danger and - in particular - sudden, random violence, also encompasses the possibility that it is in some way a retreat from danger, and that the threshold at which such a retreat might begin is not fixed, but is to some degree determined by the social norms of the day. In which case, for the well-being of the individual, and for the combat-effectiveness of the unit, it is important to [literally] encourage them, on the one hand, and on the other, to know when they have had enough.

If collapse occurs, then you enter the realm of diagnosis and therapy. I have long had doubts about PTSD as a useful diagnosis. If it is now being viewed as a blanket term covering a group of more specific conditions for which more-or-less effective therapeutic approaches have been defined, then it has moved a loong way from being the breakthrough diagnosis of my early teens in the 1970s, which [as far as my reading goes] was not accompanied by a proven-to-be-effective remedial regime.

Originally Posted by Stonker

We may have to agree to disagree: I'm inclined to a view that culture very much determines what is and is not acceptable behaviour in the face of fear.

I respect that.

My original angle was that the culture which presupposes that battle fatigue or shell shock is a sign of weakness, will inevitably act as a barrier to genuine victims seeking help. That help may have positive outcomes, and an absence of professional help may have disastrous consequences, (according to cited documents).

I am no expert, far from it, so I won't disagree with you.

It is a subject which is pertinent to my role, I'm always interested to hear accounts or opinions. I can't access earlier threads as I am on iPhone, mainly, so if anyone can add to what's already been said, then I'd be grateful.

Originally Posted by Forastero

Just bear in mind that AF is a pensioner and well out of the loop in both reality and contemporary military affairs.

Just bear in mind that if it wasn't for AF this thread would not exist!

Not bad for a geriatric war pensioner who is out of touch with reality

You have to respect the fact that I joined up before the days of yellow cards to indicate that my feelings were being hurt as a result of being shouted at in basic, and homosexuality really was a naughty word to use.

That could well be the problem with today's Army, basic training has now become unrealistic to the proper preparation for warfare and thus as a result hit's today's warriors 10 times harder on the battlefield.

How the hell can a military operate on the basis that every other soldier ends up going down today with mental illness ?

Of course mental illness has always been a problem, but nothing on the scale that it is today.

Take a closer look at all the Arab's we have been fighting recently .... Do you ever hear about them going down in their droves with mental illness ? NO because their normal way of life is a lot harder than ours is in the West today, and by comparison very little has changed in their culture over the last millennium.

If you want more proof of that, just take a look at the ethics of our powder puff "in it for the money" fat cat leaders who run our country today.

Originally Posted by AIR FILTER

Just bear in mind that if it wasn't for AF this thread would not exist!

Thanks.

That could well be the problem with today's Army, basic training has now become unrealistic to the proper preparation for warfare and thus as a result hit's today's warriors 10 times harder on the battlefield.



How the hell can a military operate on the basis that every other soldier ends up going down today with mental illness ?

Most soldiers don't.

Of course mental illness has always been a problem, but nothing on the scale that it is today.

What are the stats to prove this? WWI saw massive numbers of shell shock. Is the percentage representative of today's blokes?

Take a closer look at all the Arabs we have been fighting recently .... Do you ever hear about them going down in their droves with mental illness ? NO because their normal way of life is a lot harder than ours is in the West today, and by comparison very little has changed in their culture over the last millennium.

Do you hear about anything they go down with? In fact do we hear anything at all about their med issues?

[QUOTE]

I understand your point. But you fire from the hip.

Do you hear about Taliban casualty figures, their chain of evacuation or morale in the press?

No!

So you can't comment, except to state the unknown.

I'm not knocking you, I'm just trying to apply science; the thorough and systematic search for the truth.

If your Mrs told you that the best car was a FIAT 500 would you buy it or would you check the stats and the Internet for the boot space, reliability and economy?

Can you see my point?

Originally Posted by Mr_Snakey

Do you hear about Taliban casualty figures, their chain of evacuation or morale in the press?

No i do not .... Is that why they have already won this war by default ?