ARmy Rumour SErvice

Originally Posted by MrShanklysboots

They've been compensated, how predictably uninformed.

The grief well is a bottomless pit to keep dipping in to.

Originally Posted by bluntslane

You disgust me.

Your opinion and mine is so what?

Originally Posted by bluntslane

No upersonal attacks on the web dint bother me you could at least attempt to justify your disgustgly it hasn't been interesting. You posted the rubbish that started it, you waded in with loads of "Scouse grief whore" insults.

You are truly ugly inside.

As this is CA you no doubt can justify your claim that it hasn't been interesting with all the pages of discussion generated!
As for the insults well its CA but its the Rumour Service after all

Originally Posted by CAARPS

To pop in once again.

I completely get that those with no emotional attachment with this issue can't understand why us whinging moaning scousers won't just let it go and get on with it, I genuinely do.

I know the Taylor report exonorated the fans on the whole and can see why people don't see the need to continue to drag this out

However (because there is always an however)

From the first minutes of the disaster happening there was concerted misinformation campaign to blame the fans for the gross errors made at all levels of officialdom, from SYP to the FA, to senior government officials to certain areas of the press (used in the very loosest sense of the word). Documents disappeared, police witness statements were changed and even CCTV tapes went missing from the incident control room. All that is left has now been released (or is about to be) into the public domain and that only came about by years of 'moaning'.

Regardles of Taylor and the minuscule apologies there is a widely held belief that it was pissed up, aggressive, drunken fans that killed the innocents on that day. Threads like this and many others on other sites prove it. Even when you take away the wind up merchants and those who refuse to read any of the evidence there is still a believe that it was all the supporters fault.

Well as a result of this thread at least 3 individuals (if they are to be believed) and probably more (if they were to admit it) have looked into the issue a bit more and have changed their minds and to me that is worth the label of moaning Scouse grief whore.

If when the papers are released it shows that the fans where indeed guilty of all that was claimed then I will shut up for good, if they show that Taylor was right then there will hopefully be the same number of column inches and members of the establishment vehemently exonerating the innocent as were used to label them as guilty.

Until then I will continue to bang on in the hope that the hand me down myths can be shown for what they are to those who are willing to listen or read the evidence. For the rest, well I will just have to calm down, calm down, go and collect my benefits and mug some granny

Eloquently put, unfortunately the Great British Public believes what it chooses to believe and the truth very rarely comes into it. You only have to look at Galipoli and the myths that still surround it.

Frankly I think that the released papers will exonerate the fans even if they were drunk and aggressive. After all if someone is drunk and/or aggressive you take extra precautions, not less. Clearly Duckinfield had neither the experience, knowledge, imagination nor intelligence to properly plan for eventualities and once the unforeseen (to him) circumstances of his ineptitude occurred he was personally not well equipped to deal with them. Having said that, the medical services were probably not expecting or staffed for such a disaster which would have created it's own situation.

My only objection, if objection it be, is that a new inquest will do nothing to change what is known and what has been learned from the disasters. Even if the new coroner changed the time it would do nothing to change what has happened. A charge of unlawful death would not lead to charges because there was no corporate responsibility in those days and there were no individual unlawful acts. Being incompetent, even on the scale of Duckinfield, is not an unlawful act in itself.

I can understand how people from Liverpool, or more accurately the families of those who were killed, can feel aggrieved and let down by incompetence of the police in the investigation of what happened. I don't honestly believe it was because they were from Liverpool but because they were football fans who already had a bit of previous. I think that their reputation coloured the way the police initially approached the problem. I'm sure the problems with the investigation were a mixture of incompetence, pre-conception and wishing to cover-up through sympathy for colleagues.

I was sat in a bar in Koln that day, we had tried to get in to see Koln vs Leverkusen (a match every bit as big as the Liverpool semi) and had not been able to get in as the tickets were all sold out as we were queuing. Our first reaction was one of acute embarrassment as it looked like the Liverpool fans kicking off again. It was only when some of the German guys said that they were talking about people being crushed that we were left in stunned silence watching (apparently) much more than UK audiences were able to. When the word spread it was drunken fans it was readily acceptable because that is the reputation that preceded the Liverpool fans (or, I should say, an element of them). When it was explained how the police had completely failed to plan for any eventuality including drunken fans trying to get into the ground (a known phenomenon) then it was easy to see who was to blame, clearly no one in charge knew even the basics about crowd dynamics.

Whatever the outcome of the new release of papers the people of Liverpool need to accept that they can't change what happened, they can only try to prevent it ever occurring again. I believe that the lessons have already been learned and that the only way forward is to accept the one thing that cannot change, the dead will not be coming back. No matter how many inquests there are and, don't forget, if the cut off is changed to 1600 there will be many families who will be distraught to think that their loved ones may have suffered for so long. You can't have it both ways, unfortunately, and the majority will have died with no possibility of fixing an accurate time of death. I think most would prefer to think that their loved ones died instantly rather than suffered, I know I would.

I have had my say and posted some links to provide some food for thought (for those that are willing).

That's me on this now, well at least until the next thread on this subject (usually about every 3 - 4 months) that isn't in the NAAFI where the Ill informed start spouting off.


I am glad some have taken the time to delve a little deeper, as for the rest. "There are non so blind as those that will not see"

Originally Posted by ugly

As this is CA you no doubt can justify your claim that it hasn't been interesting with all the pages of discussion generated!
As for the insults well its CA but its the Rumour Service after all

In the part of my post that you mutilated, you scrawled, "No upersonal attacks on the web dint bother you could at least attempt to justify your digustgly it hasn't been interesting".

Then you attempt to justify your own personal insults by stating that although it's in CA it's OK because it's the Rumour Service. Well Moderated, big fella, no, really.

Typing on a Blackberry with a broken screen isn't too clever, agreed!