Thread: Casual Nazism

Yes. Quite so. (Is that 10 characters yet?)

Personally, I blame the god delusion.

Originally Posted by benjaminw1

Agreed, Niemoller was a dirty heretic...

That of course depends on how you define heretic and how you view the actual history of his life and times. My point in even mentioning him earlier in the thread has much less to do with his personal merits (or demerits) than it does with the sobering reminder to all of us in his statement (again recogniz(s)ing there is still debate about which specific categories he originally included). We would all do well to not lose the profound message contained in his statement in the chatter about the extent of his moral courage or the details of his actual statement.

I would also humbly (and I mean that quite sincerely) say that I for one try to avoid making comparative moral judgments about what other men do or fail to do under the kind of circumstances that confronted all people of conscience during the Nazi era. While I have made no secret that due to my personal beliefs I firmly subscribe to the principle that there are indeed moral absolutes, I also try to keep firmly in mind that it is all too easy for us to pass "moral" judgment as to how someone else should have acted in a given in extremis situation, especially from the relative comfort and safety of our computer keyboard and with the benefit of crystal clear hindsight (in this instance knowing that the "good guys" won in Germany). While this does not mean that those who choose "wrongly" may not ultimately have to account for their actions, I still try to distinguish between that and feeling ever so superior in the "certain" knowledge that I would have done better.

Of course, most of us would aspire to to the "right thing" even with the proverbial "gun to our head," but my own experiences in such horrible situations have caused me to be very very slow to judge the character of someone else who may not have lived up to such an expectation in a very bad situation. Indeed, the more adamant someone is about how nobly and heroically he would perform in such dire straits (and again this is usually from the perspective of relative safety and comfort), the less I would want to be with such a person when it goes pear-shaped.

I wish to thank Cuddles for employing the word "ignoramuses". I have pondered the word's spelling for years, although I was never vexed enough to actually get the dictionary out and check.
Again, thanks Cuddles

Many people would think ignorami is probably more accurate as a plural...but I'm afraid ignoramus comes from the verb ignorare and therefore takes the plural ending -es. Unlike stimuli, which derives from the Latin noun and hence ends -i in a plural form.

Interestingly the use of ignoramus to mean a know-nothing derives from the name of an eponymous lawyer character in a C17th play by George ruggle. He opted to name his foolish lawyer in this way, in respect of the legal term meaning "we do not know enough to convict", a legitimate verdict under English law until 1934.

Don't you just love Google? Try Googling "EDL leadership and BNP" for example...

Originally Posted by jumpinjarhead

That of course depends on how you define heretic and how you view the actual history of his life and times. My point in even mentioning him earlier in the thread has much less to do with his personal merits (or demerits) than it does with the sobering reminder to all of us in his statement (again recogniz(s)ing there is still debate about which specific categories he originally included). We would all do well to not lose the profound message contained in his statement in the chatter about the extent of his moral courage or the details of his actual statement.

I would also humbly (and I mean that quite sincerely) say that I for one try to avoid making comparative moral judgments about what other men do or fail to do under the kind of circumstances that confronted all people of conscience during the Nazi era. While I have made no secret that due to my personal beliefs I firmly subscribe to the principle that there are indeed moral absolutes, I also try to keep firmly in mind that it is all too easy for us to pass "moral" judgment as to how someone else should have acted in a given in extremis situation, especially from the relative comfort and safety of our computer keyboard and with the benefit of crystal clear hindsight (in this instance knowing that the "good guys" won in Germany). While this does not mean that those who choose "wrongly" may not ultimately have to account for their actions, I still try to distinguish between that and feeling ever so superior in the "certain" knowledge that I would have done better.

Of course, most of us would aspire to to the "right thing" even with the proverbial "gun to our head," but my own experiences in such horrible situations have caused me to be very very slow to judge the character of someone else who may not have lived up to such an expectation in a very bad situation. Indeed, the more adamant someone is about how nobly and heroically he would perform in such dire straits (and again this is usually from the perspective of relative safety and comfort), the less I would want to be with such a person when it goes pear-shaped.

Silvery, goldery etc.

(Technically all Latins and Protestants are hetrodox belonging to heretical organisations; but then I am a Russian Orthodox so Mandy Rice-Davies)

Originally Posted by Just Visiting

Personally, I blame the god delusion.

Woof! Woof!

Originally Posted by Cuddles

Many people would think ignorami is probably more accurate as a plural...but I'm afraid ignoramus comes from the verb ignorare and therefore takes the plural ending -es. Unlike stimuli, which derives from the Latin noun and hence ends -i in a plural form.

Interestingly the use of ignoramus to mean a know-nothing derives from the name of an eponymous lawyer character in a C17th play by George ruggle. He opted to name his foolish lawyer in this way, in respect of the legal term meaning "we do not know enough to convict", a legitimate verdict under English law until 1934.

Don't you just love Google? Try Googling "EDL leadership and BNP" for example...

All this latin knowledge and you claim not to have cohorts? Ave, Legato Legionis!

Originally Posted by Cuddles

Try Googling "EDL leadership and BNP" for example...

So, I did. An interesting article was first on the list: UK Indymedia - EDL Racists

'Racists
The English Defence League are very good at creating disinformation but not very good at being convincing. The smokescreen phrases like ‘multi-racial’, ‘non-racist’ and ‘unity’ are completely undermined by a quick look at UK racist web forums which support them. First of all, the anti-Semitic Stormfront website has a thread entitled Defending The EDL; pro-BNP forum VNNuk has one on the banning of the EDL march; and Batty Lee Barnes, humiliatingly expelled from the BNP, has been offering guidance for the EDL on his blog. If that isn’t damning enough, BNP Info report that:
“EDL leaders Stephen Yaxley-Lennon and Chris Renton (aka John Sheridan) are BNP, Jeff Marsh (aka Joe Casuals) … says he supports voting BNP, Paul Ray says he's NOT anti-BNP but he was shunned by EDL leaders for opposing Renton linking with Nazis, Joel Titus says he opposes the BNP but accepted BNP activists as friends on You Tube, and EDL poster-boy Guramit Singh is a proven racist. Other movers and shakers in the original EDL include NF activist David Tull and BNP activist David Cooling.”
Incidentally, Paul Ray has recently been arrested for stirring up racial hatred on the internet. Jings!

It is abundantly clear that there are many active racists in the EDL and it is embarrassing for the leadership to continue denying this. It means they are either lying or genuinely have no idea who their followers are. There is simply too much evidence on web forums and too many incriminating photographs - like the recent ones of the Welsh supporters of the EDL Sieg Heiling and showing swastika tattoos - for their denials to be convincing. The EDL’s own forum contains diverse right wing opinion: some posts have spoken against the violence and Sieg Heiling, especially after Stoke, but others are openly violent and more threatening.

Many EDL members share the same politics as the more hardcore fascists but reject the Hitler stuff as irrelevant and all the Zionist conspiracy theory as either stupid or too confusing. However, racist sentiments are common throughout the majority of the EDL and the anti-Islamic sentiment is a cover for their ‘anti-Paki’ politics like anti-Israel sentiment is used to disguise anti-Semitism. For most EDL all brown skinned people are ‘Pakis’ and all ‘Pakis’ are Muslims and all Muslims are extremists. Perhaps the EDL needs to say ‘Not Racist, Just Selectively Racist.’

Fascists
The EDL use exactly the same strategy that Moseley’s British Union of Fascists used and which the later NF and BNP tried to emulate. The BUF focussed solely on a minority group, the Jews, so do the EDL; the BUF used scaremongering against the Jews, the EDL use them against Muslims, i.e., Muslim paedophile gangs and drug dealers stories; the BUF used violence and intimidating tactics against local communities, so do the EDL; and the BUF tried to break up opposition meetings, so do the EDL. The BUF understood that media manipulation and good PR is essential to ‘legitimise’ themselves and so do the EDL. The fact that the EDL use fascist tactics and have fascist members all point to an inevitable ‘if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck’ conclusion. The one key difference between the BUF and the EDL is a single leadership figure. The EDL leadership clique use pseudonyms and shun the vanity posturings of Moseley. Given the amount of animosity towards them from many corners, this is hardly surprising. Moseley himself described street politics as ‘this rough game.’

Bradford
The EDL are pushing the Bradford demo this weekend after falling turnouts on recent daytrips. They have been banned from marching but will stage a static protest. They will be bussed in by the cops, allowed to shout, be hopefully contained, and then bussed back again. The EDL have been trumpeting this do for a long time knowing they will face considerable opposition. The Hope Not Hate campaign has urged folks to stay away; UAF have organised a static counter-demo; more militant anti-fascists are preparing for it; and Asian youth and local community groups will no doubt make their voices heard. Which is the point. Previous EDL demos in Stoke, Dudley, and Bolton have created much tension and they are helping to inflame anti-Islamic sentiment. The dream situation would be to recreate the race riots like in Oldham in 2001 to prove that they are a potent political force to be reckoned with rather than a confused bunch of drunken racists and fantasy Nazis. The EDL are deliberately provocative and go into areas where they will try to attain maximum disruption, plenty of media coverage for their vanity scrapbooks and a good day was had by all. The static demo strategy has proved fruitful: marches are boring anyway and if they can just gather at Wetherspoon’s so much the better. At least they have toilets so the EDL do not have to urinate on national monuments.

The leadership has sent out an email asking everyone to play nicely, not fight or get drunk and obey the law. This is merely window-dressing and the idea of the EDL turning up with rosaries and herbal tea is far fetched. Plod is enforcing an alcohol ban in the city and on trains but the EDL will be plotting up in 2 pubs on the periphery of Bradford beforehand for the requisite barrel and blether session. They will then be bussed in with predictable results, no doubt.

Politics
That the EDL have popular support amongst football firms and Nazi grupuscules is clear but whether they can break out of such a political ghetto is uncertain. In case you haven’t noticed, the BNP have been busy imploding in a riot of acrimony over power abuse, cash and corruption (see Malatesta’s Blog) and many on the racist right are looking for an alternative. UKIP are far too posh and tweedy for most working class voters; BNP is finished; the NF too small and compromised by the state; and other Nazi factions subject to arrest over internet behaviour. That there is money and support behind the EDL is not in doubt but whether they can take it one step further and fill the power vacuum on the far right, attain the stamina for serious political campaigning and control their more idiotic impulses, we shall have to wait and see.'

This is very confusing, Stacker says they are non-political....

Stacker is observing radio silence for some reason, I hope no-one bumps this thread in his absence

Can I join the Casual Nazi Party?
Sounds like a fairly laid back outfit, you get all the world supremacy bit without the aggravation of having wander the streets in jackboots and carrying a blazing torch sort of thing?

It's like listening-out on HF, the silence is deafening - Stacker, where are you?

Should we send a search party?

Originally Posted by jagman

Can I join the Casual Nazi Party?
Sounds like a fairly laid back outfit, you get all the world supremacy bit without the aggravation of having wander the streets in jackboots and carrying a blazing torch sort of thing?

Standards, standards Jagman! Having studied a few videos of EDL gatherings I can confirm that there is a dress code. You must wear industrial steel toe-capped boots, jeans and a white t-shirt (slogan optional). If cold, a leather bomber jacket rounds off the ensemble.

Of course, it is compulsory to have tattoos. These should preferrably have been created by a talentless cellmate in one of Her Majesty's Prisons....

Originally Posted by Maple

Stacker is observing radio silence for some reason, I hope no-one bumps this thread in his absence

That reason being one lad getting shot in the head and another 5 getting fragged from a grenade.

Originally Posted by Maple

It's like listening-out on HF, the silence is deafening - Stacker, where are you?

Should we send a search party?

Sorry, I'll tell people to stopped fighting the Taliban because some tit on the internet wants an answer.

Originally Posted by Cuddles

Don't you just love Google? Try Googling "EDL leadership and BNP" for example...

First link is the UAF
Next is a link that has the words "Admittedly, not all EDL are BNP but it is this broad right wing spectrum "
Then the hope not hate website
The the Lib dems
So not bias sites in the slighhtest
Lets see what the Indymedia site also says
The policing debacle in Bolton when peaceful UAF supporters were arrested and released without charge, coupled with a parellel sea-change of the reporting of the British Media, (from the Guardian to the BBC, politically correctly labelling the EDL merely "right wing" rather than far right), questions must be asked as to what deals (if any) were done in secret, in the Sheffield Police Station interrogation room, between the authorities and the leadership of the EDL.

Peaceful UAF supporters? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
Deals between the old bill and the EDL?
Got anymore quality sites?