Thread: The problems facing modern Socialists

Originally Posted by Kitmarlowe

Oh Dear God.....Not a call for TRUE Socialism in our time.

Yeah, would you believe it?

But you appear to want to give the impression that you've carefully weighed the pros and cons of different socio-political systems and come to a conclusion, so let's hear it, Kit!

MsG

Originally Posted by Bugsy

I'm a third-generation Socialist ......True Socialism, and I mean TRUE SOCIALISM

You are Neil Kinnock and I claim £5

Originally Posted by Bukit_Basha

Originally Posted by Bugsy

I'm a third-generation Socialist ......True Socialism, and I mean TRUE SOCIALISM

You are Neil Kinnock and I claim £5

It might have escaped your attention in your chortle, chortle dullard, fückwit mind at how witty you are, but Kinnock happens to be a Taff. :D

Nothing else to say about the subject in hand? Thought not!

MsG

Originally Posted by Bugsy

Originally Posted by Bukit_Basha

Originally Posted by Bugsy

I'm a third-generation Socialist ......True Socialism, and I mean TRUE SOCIALISM

You are Neil Kinnock and I claim £5

It might have escaped your attention in your chortle, chortle dullard, fückwit mind at how witty you are, but Kinnock happens to be a Taff. :D

Nothing else to say about the subject in hand? Thought not!

MsG

Oh you mean thats not the Welsh National Flag in your avatar :WINK:

I was having similar thoughts this morning, Bugsy.

I was pondering on the reactions, on the Arrse threads, that describe some viscious chavs setting upon an old soldier in his 80s, and nicking his pension.
And Arrsers' outrage when some scrote pinches the RBL Poppy collection.

I couldn't understand how these same people could defend a system based on thieving capitalists robbing honest, working people.

Well, I've made my comments in this thread before. There still seems to be massive gap between the state of the world today and Bugsy's utopia of "true" socialism. At least I fail to see how to get to this world with equal opportunities. What steps need to be taken to have this system?

It seems there should be a monumental change in people's attitudes and mindsets. But it's not clear to me how this will be accomplished.

What Bugsy and other socialists in this thread don't realise is that they currently live in a system where they're offered all the opportunities to better themselves and the people around them. It's up to them. After leaving school we all have the liberty to choose whether we join the armed forces, become civil servants or study whatever we want at university (and if you didn't get the right grades there are several bypasses to end up in uni) and we even have the liberty to do f*ck all with our lives and live on benefits.

We have the liberty to criticise our current system, including it's leaders. In fact, if you look at all the systems worldwide (today and in the past) I'd say we live under the best socio-political system. Never in history did all people within a nation have access to so many opportunities as we have today. On an individual level I may add. Every individual with aspirations - be it becoming a street artist or setting up a compagny - could fullfil their desire.

And you call this system close to facism?

Originally Posted by Bugsy

…

… explain this "human nature" in the context of evolutionary psychology, the development of mankind and modern society.

Do you believe in a just society Bugsy; a serious question?

Originally Posted by Bukit_Basha

Originally Posted by Bugsy

Originally Posted by Bukit_Basha

Originally Posted by Bugsy

I'm a third-generation Socialist ......True Socialism, and I mean TRUE SOCIALISM

You are Neil Kinnock and I claim £5

It might have escaped your attention in your chortle, chortle dullard, fückwit mind at how witty you are, but Kinnock happens to be a Taff. :D

Nothing else to say about the subject in hand? Thought not!

MsG

Oh you mean thats not the Welsh National Flag in your avatar :WINK:

So instead of pokeying up, you decided to produce something *cough* "entirely original" as a response. Well done!

MsG

Originally Posted by Bugsy

With that in mind, it’s quite bewildering for me that ex and serving squaddies seem to find the concept of “communal well-being� so completely alien.

Anybody who’s been in the Armed Forces is/should be well aware of how completely and utterly they rely on each other to “do the bizz�. It may not always produce the desired result, but the reciprocal reliability is undeniable.

I have yet to serve properly, so bear with me if I start spouting bollox.

OK, so you might be relying on your section's LSW gunner to put some fire in while you find cover, or trust that the Pl Sgt's secured enough ammo for everyone to bomb up to full capacity. But is that really socialism in action? The barman in my local relies on the deliveries turning up on a regular basis otherwise he can't pull pints; similarly the landlord relies on his bar staff turning up in order to help him run the place. Would you class these instances of interdependence as socialist in nature, or the simple result of people doing their bit to get some money in the bank at the end of the month?

Originally Posted by Bugsy

On a more personal basis, but still well within the scope of this “human nature� that so many readily decry as being a hurdle to “Socialism�; how many of us have heard of or actually taken part in stories of sprogs who just couldn't get it right with their best boots, ironing their uniforms, knotting their ties correctly, getting their webbing in order etc? Did we just leave those folks to their destiny? Did we just think: "I'm alright, Jack, and fück you?". No, we didn't! In the majority of cases we got stuck in to make sure that the person involved managed a turnout that attracted no negativity, as far as we were able.

I know that might not sound like “Socialism�, but that, in essence, it what it is! The very fact that lasses and lads from the all levels of society embrace this structure and blossom should (in itself) be an indicator that there’s a distinct possibility of transposing the same on society in general and all in all contributing to a much more positive outlook on life.

What you're ignoring is that everybody works together for a tangible reason - be that an efficiency trophy or the simple desire to avoid extra phys from the CSM. More to the point, people sign up for that in the Forces, as opposed to being born into it or having it thrust upon them. It works while everyone signs up to it and internalises the values of the system, but once you have an individual who doesn't want to play ball, it all falls apart.

Originally Posted by Bugsy

Who really cares if star X wears a googy dress? Who cares if some Big Brother cunt kisses another? Does that really contribute to the solution of pressing and social personal problems?

Several million people (mongs?) across the country, as you ask. We might not give a flying fuck about celebrity culture, but plenty of idiots do, and these are the ones who stand the most to lose under a socialist system that no longer permits the banal and trivial to flourish.

Originally Posted by Bugsy

We (the "We" being generic) need a socio-political system that mirrors our individual hopes, aspirations and dreams on a realistic basis. The present Capitalist system doesn't do that in any way. Indeed it only bows down to a system little short of … fascism?

Capitalism allows the ordinary man to progress right to the very top - look at Alan Sugar, who started off flogging stuff out the back of a van. While it is undoubtedly true that not everyone can go to that level, why is this necessarily a bad thing? The dream is achievable, but nobody knows if they're capable of it or not until they give it a go.

Originally Posted by Bugsy

…………….

We (the "We" being generic) need a socio-political system that mirrors our individual hopes, aspirations and dreams on a realistic basis. The present Capitalist system doesn't do that in any way. Indeed it only bows down to a system little short of … fascism?

Your thoughts, please.

MsG

Who is going to define whether or not each and every individual’s hopes, aspirations and dreams are on a “realistic basis�?

Who is going then going to enforce the definition?

What provisions have you got to amend the definition in the light of circumstances?

Who is going to punish those who do not conform to the definition?

What will be the punishment?

Who is anyone to dictate to you that your personal hopes, aspirations and dreams are unrealistic and therefore you must desist from holding or following them?

Originally Posted by Balleh

Originally Posted by Bugsy

…………….

We (the "We" being generic) need a socio-political system that mirrors our individual hopes, aspirations and dreams on a realistic basis. The present Capitalist system doesn't do that in any way. Indeed it only bows down to a system little short of … fascism?

Your thoughts, please.

MsG

Who is going to define whether or not each and every individual’s hopes, aspirations and dreams are on a “realistic basis�?

Who is going then going to enforce the definition?

What provisions have you got to amend the definition in the light of circumstances?

Who is going to punish those who do not conform to the definition?

What will be the punishment?

Who is anyone to dictate to you that your personal hopes, aspirations and dreams are unrealistic and therefore you must desist from holding or following them?

Well done, Balleh! All administered with the purpose of "what spurious reasons can I bring up to prove that what Bugys says is all bollix".

It's really a shame, but all the "thought" you've apparently put into inventing ostensible reasons why Socialism won't work, could just have easily been put into reasons why Socialism WILL work.

But that's not what you want is it? You've been systematically conditioned to accept that Capitalism is the only way forward and you can't envision anything else, can you? That's a fair one, although plenty of other folks can imagine a more than viable alternative. It's called Socialism.

MsG

Originally Posted by Bugsy

Originally Posted by Balleh

Originally Posted by Bugsy

…………….

We (the "We" being generic) need a socio-political system that mirrors our individual hopes, aspirations and dreams on a realistic basis. The present Capitalist system doesn't do that in any way. Indeed it only bows down to a system little short of … fascism?

Your thoughts, please.

MsG

Who is going to define whether or not each and every individual’s hopes, aspirations and dreams are on a “realistic basis�?

Who is going then going to enforce the definition?

What provisions have you got to amend the definition in the light of circumstances?

Who is going to punish those who do not conform to the definition?

What will be the punishment?

Who is anyone to dictate to you that your personal hopes, aspirations and dreams are unrealistic and therefore you must desist from holding or following them?

Well done, Balleh! All administered with the purpose of "what spurious reasons can I bring up to prove that what Bugys says is all bollix".

It's really a shame, but all the "thought" you've apparently put into inventing ostensible reasons why Socialism won't work, could just have easily been put into reasons why Socialism WILL work.

But that's not what you want is it? You've been systematically conditioned to accept that Capitalism is the only way forward and you can't envision anything else, can you? That's a fair one, although plenty of other folks can imagine a more than viable alternative. It's called Socialism.

MsG

My dear old chap, you argue for a socio-political system but systems have to be defined and then managed.

All I’m asking is how you propose to do that “on a realistic basis�.

So far, answer comes there none.

Originally Posted by Balleh

Originally Posted by Bugsy

…………….

We (the "We" being generic) need a socio-political system that mirrors our individual hopes, aspirations and dreams on a realistic basis. The present Capitalist system doesn't do that in any way. Indeed it only bows down to a system little short of … fascism?

Your thoughts, please.

MsG

Who is going to define whether or not each and every individual’s hopes, aspirations and dreams are on a “realistic basis�?

Who is going then going to enforce the definition?

What provisions have you got to amend the definition in the light of circumstances?

Who is going to punish those who do not conform to the definition?

What will be the punishment?

Who is anyone to dictate to you that your personal hopes, aspirations and dreams are unrealistic and therefore you must desist from holding or following them?

Far be it from me to agree with balleh, but.

For socialism to work there would have to be some kind of mind control/redirection to occur to ensure that everyone understands that they are doing for the good of mankind.
Who would direct this control?

Anyway Buggers, what do you do with people who will not conform? How would you "educate" them? Dont give the answer that they would eventually realise its for the good, re above, there will be people who are mentally challenged for instance but it will not be clear cut, they will need some form of education. I would have thought that especially as they will be deemed that the best way they can help society is by going down the sewers and making sure there are no blockages, or a myriad of other "interesting" jobs.

Or, are you going to just "let" everyone do what they want to do/are best at/its their turn?

Socialism is totally unrealistic in the real world.

Originally Posted by Balleh

All I’m asking is how you propose to do that “on a realistic basis�.

So far, answer comes there none.

The dirty little secret is they will employ the same tactics as previous attempts, which is a totalitarian answer. Repress decent, and malcontents (in the eyes of the socialist elite) by shooting them or imprisioning them.

Originally Posted by Balleh

My dear old chap, you argue for a socio-political system but systems have to be defined and then managed.

All I’m asking is how you propose to do that “on a realistic basis�.

So far, answer comes there none.

Fairy nuff, my dear old chap. Since we happen to be in the unholy grip of an inherently destructive Capitalist system, why don't you define that and how its management will coincide with the wishes, hopes and well-being of future generations.

I'll then contribute the same on Socialism. Fair exchange?

MsG