Thread: The problems facing modern Socialists

Originally Posted by smartascarrots

Originally Posted by jew_unit

Also, no species display true altruism. Bees kill themselves because their similarity to the rest of the hive means that their genes will survive in other creatures. Humans do not display this type of behaviour.

Be sure to tell that to all those members of the Armed Forces and Emergency services who've died trying to save others, not to mention the uncounted numbers of parents who've rushed into burning houses to save their kids. How many interviews after the fact have you heard them say something along the lines of, "I didn't think, I just did it".

As to "no species display true altruism", that'll come as a surprise to e.g. the Royal Holloway, who've been studying animal altrusim for years. No doubt you'll want to get in
touch to tell them how they've been wasting their efforts all this time?

Before you go off on "oh, that's just them preserving their genes", adoptive parents do the same thing.

Congratulations. You scored a cheap debating point. Now go read the article, it disproves everything you've said about animal behaviour. Notethe parts where it talks about selfishness in animals. Also note that altruism is only towards family members. Having read the nature paper a while ago I have been fully aware that animals cannot display true altruism (ie doing something for a friend who is not related, particulalry self destruction). As it happens, this is irrelevant as some humans can display this behaviour. The point is that not all can.

Now that there are two of you, can you please answer my point from earlier. Explain to me, as a reasonably wealthy person, why I should give this up to live in a socialist state and then why it is to my advantage to not amass wealth or exploit others for my personal gain.

Originally Posted by Bugsy

Originally Posted by Ord_Sgt

Originally Posted by Bugsy

Originally Posted by Ord_Sgt

I used to think bugsy was on a wind up but I really think the man is genuinely that stupid.

Aah, Orderly_Sargely seems to have woken up from his drunken stupor. Remember, Orderly_Sargely, nobody can force you to feel inferior. :D

MsG

Is that like utterly butterly? Can I call you bugsy mugsy, like I was still ten?

You can call me fückin' Susan if you like, mucker! :D :D :D

Originally Posted by Ord_Sgt

Inferior, is that like being a lower class wage slave like you? I'll give it a miss thanks. You're the one wanting what others have got. Cap fits and all that.

No, Ordy_Sargey, it's the feeling you have when you're confronted with anybody who you perceive as being "superior" to you. So that would be just about everybody you encounter, eh? :D :D :D

MsG

Mate you're always going to be the one playing catch up, its ok, someone has to be the loser. Well actually its not, but hey, some one has to come last. But I'm sure your mother things you are special. Send me a postcard.....

Jew-unit, if you include Brighton hippy I think thats 3 candidates for the collective.

Bugsy,stop analysing O_S and look down on me from your Ivory Tower. I'm still sceptical about the whole Socialism matter. Don't misunderstand me, I have a fine grasp of the theory, but for the life of me I cannot see how it can be applied to society and SUCCEED in it's ideals.

Where do you see yourself within the Socialist system? As one of the proletariat or a member of the state committee (on a strictly equal basis of course)?

I'm going to get all grandiose (but hey, I'm a capitalist, so why not?) and propose a motto for "yourtopia":


SOCIALISM IS THE OPIATE OF THE MASSES

My personal view is that Trotsky was a billy-no-mates loser who jotted down his university-common-room musings in a cheap little red book.

One day, because of his inherent personality flaws, he allowed himself to be taken under the wing of a former school bully type big boy.

The former school bully, call him Uncle Joe, repeated the story of poor little Leons' life to date, ripped him off then had the miserable little loser exterminated.

Freedom for Tooting, eh, Wolfie?

Originally Posted by jew_unit

Explain to me, as a reasonably wealthy person, why I should give this up to live in a socialist state and then why it is to my advantage to not amass wealth or exploit others for my personal gain.

If I may be so bold as to attempt to provide an answer to your question. You’re, again, arguing within the present system in that you’re transposing Capitalist aspirations onto a Socialist society.

In truth, the objective you wish to achieve is the same, it’s just that the methods are different. Let me explain that more precisely: in the Capitalist system, the accepted symbol signifying status is the possession of money, or at least the appearance of wealth (which is why knockoffs of such brands as Versace, Dolce e Gabbana, Blahnik etc are so popular). You see your “superiority� endangered by Socialism because you’d no longer be able to simply brandish your wedge and be automatically regarded as superior. The main thing here is that you long for superiority, and to appear superior, and would do anything to achieve it.

Under Socialism, you have just as much opportunity to attain the superiority your money gives you at the moment, with the difference that you’d be genuinely and enduringly admired for what you do for the community, and not just superficially because you happen to have a large stash you can flash. If you really have something to offer the community on an enduring basis, then recognition is yours for the taking, if, on the other hand, you reckon that all you have to do is pretend you're a part of the "jet set", I'm afraid you might have to forego the desired recognition.

With regard to exploiting others to attain the authority/recognition/superiority you crave; why would you want to do that, when you can access those attributes simply by being a positive asset to your community? In such a case, striving for more would actually tarnish your reputation instead of enhancing it. But that would, however, be in a Socialist setting.

MsG

Originally Posted by Ord_Sgt

Mate you're always going to be the one playing catch up, its ok, someone has to be the loser. Well actually its not, but hey, some one has to come last. But I'm sure your mother things you are special. Send me a postcard.....

Ord_Sarge, you came on this thread with the express purpose of proving your ostensible superiority to me. I say that because you’ve contributed absolutely fück-all to the thread but instead have taken every opportunity to slag me off. You made it clear some years ago that you don’t like me, which is fair enough. However, your subsequent posts on this thread have given me a very much clearer idea as to why and an intimate insight into your serious personality disorders.

I’m sure it would suit you very nicely if I was a civvie. Then you could’ve expounded your ostensible (and automatic) superiority in the fact that you’re an ex-squaddie. It just so happens that I’m also an ex-squaddie and I even served in the same army as you. So you, instead, pettily attempted to denigrate my service in said army. All a bit sad and pathetic, really, but it shows how important the issue is to you.

Unfortunately, we seem to have a conflict here; or more exactly a “clash of opposites�, because while you see it as your, personal, duty to “prove� that you’re superior to me, I, on the other hand, am completely indifferent to you. For me, you’re just some pompous, conceited, presumptuous, self-important, vain wallah on a website, who thinks he’s owed some sort of respect as of right. Sorry, but it doesn’t actually work like that. So get over yourself fellah. If you’ve nothing to say on the subject, try and keep off the thread because it is a bit irritating (and not only for me) when you constantly pop up with your schoolboy posts.

MsG

Originally Posted by Bugsy

Originally Posted by jew_unit

Explain to me, as a reasonably wealthy person, why I should give this up to live in a socialist state and then why it is to my advantage to not amass wealth or exploit others for my personal gain.

If I may be so bold as to attempt to provide an answer to your question. You’re, again, arguing within the present system in that you’re transposing Capitalist aspirations onto a Socialist society.

In truth, the objective you wish to achieve is the same, it’s just that the methods are different. Let me explain that more precisely: in the Capitalist system, the accepted symbol signifying status is the possession of money, or at least the appearance of wealth (which is why knockoffs of such brands as Versace, Dolce e Gabbana, Blahnik etc are so popular). You see your “superiority� endangered by Socialism because you’d no longer be able to simply brandish your wedge and be automatically regarded as superior. The main thing here is that you long for superiority, and to appear superior, and would do anything to achieve it.

Under Socialism, you have just as much opportunity to attain the superiority your money gives you at the moment, with the difference that you’d be genuinely and enduringly admired for what you do for the community, and not just superficially because you happen to have a large stash you can flash. If you really have something to offer the community on an enduring basis, then recognition is yours for the taking, if, on the other hand, you reckon that all you have to do is pretend you're a part of the "jet set", I'm afraid you might have to forego the desired recognition.

With regard to exploiting others to attain the authority/recognition/superiority you crave; why would you want to do that, when you can access those attributes simply by being a positive asset to your community? In such a case, striving for more would actually tarnish your reputation instead of enhancing it. But that would, however, be in a Socialist setting.

MsG

Bugsy, do you find yourself drawn to voluntary work within any given community?

Who exactly thinks knock off designer gear is a symbol of wealth? That would be the less productive members of your perfect society, so called "chavs". The net-detractors as opposed to the net-contributors.

I am from a similar background to a lot of these people and live, I imagine, to a better standard with more relative wealth by dint of my own hard work. Labour has freed me from poverty, by my own choice. I aspired to better myself and did so.

In the Peoples Republic how would you stifle my aspirations, to prevent me trying to compete against my co-operatives? Or would you use my example as the Shining Path for other workers to aspire to? How would you stop the Union walking out because your trying to exploit the masses to increase productivity? AND WHO THE FCUK(tm) GIVES YOU THE RIGHT TO DO SO?

We live in a democracy, that requires voting and so, opposition. Opposition denies true Socialism, which requires totalitarianism.

You are proposing totalitarianism and I believe that makes you an enemy of the (democratic) state.

However, we all have the vote, I'll see you, figuratively, at the polling both.

Originally Posted by Bugsy

Originally Posted by jew_unit

Explain to me, as a reasonably wealthy person, why I should give this up to live in a socialist state and then why it is to my advantage to not amass wealth or exploit others for my personal gain.

If I may be so bold as to attempt to provide an answer to your question. You’re, again, arguing within the present system in that you’re transposing Capitalist aspirations onto a Socialist society.

In truth, the objective you wish to achieve is the same, it’s just that the methods are different. Let me explain that more precisely: in the Capitalist system, the accepted symbol signifying status is the possession of money, or at least the appearance of wealth (which is why knockoffs of such brands as Versace, Dolce e Gabbana, Blahnik etc are so popular). You see your “superiority� endangered by Socialism because you’d no longer be able to simply brandish your wedge and be automatically regarded as superior. The main thing here is that you long for superiority, and to appear superior, and would do anything to achieve it.

Under Socialism, you have just as much opportunity to attain the superiority your money gives you at the moment, with the difference that you’d be genuinely and enduringly admired for what you do for the community, and not just superficially because you happen to have a large stash you can flash. If you really have something to offer the community on an enduring basis, then recognition is yours for the taking, if, on the other hand, you reckon that all you have to do is pretend you're a part of the "jet set", I'm afraid you might have to forego the desired recognition.

With regard to exploiting others to attain the authority/recognition/superiority you crave; why would you want to do that, when you can access those attributes simply by being a positive asset to your community? In such a case, striving for more would actually tarnish your reputation instead of enhancing it. But that would, however, be in a Socialist setting.

MsG

Because you are the dullest fucker in the world and if its not me its my best mate who is shagging your Doris, people like you are so surprised that their Doris is busy getting something better, You are the dullest fucker in the world. But of course its utterly butterly..........

Originally Posted by Ord_Sgt

Because you are the dullest f***** in the world and if its not me its my best mate who is shagging your Doris, people like you are so surprised that their Doris is busy getting something better, You are the dullest f***** in the world. But of course its utterly butterly..........

Oh, dear. How depressingly predictable. :D :D :D

MsG

Originally Posted by Bugsy

Originally Posted by Ord_Sgt

Because you are the dullest f***** in the world and if its not me its my best mate who is shagging your Doris, people like you are so surprised that their Doris is busy getting something better, You are the dullest f***** in the world. But of course its utterly butterly..........

Oh, dear. How depressingly predictable. :D :D :D

MsG

We know you're depressed. Having a little dick is nothing to be ashamed of...

Originally Posted by Ord_Sgt

Originally Posted by Bugsy

Originally Posted by Ord_Sgt

Because you are the dullest f***** in the world and if its not me its my best mate who is shagging your Doris, people like you are so surprised that their Doris is busy getting something better, You are the dullest f***** in the world. But of course its utterly butterly..........

Oh, dear. How depressingly predictable. :D :D :D

MsG

We know you're depressed. Having a little dick is nothing to be ashamed of...

So lucky me that I've also got a little wife, eh? :D :D :D

MsG

Originally Posted by bluntslane

Bugsy, do you find yourself drawn to voluntary work within any given community?

I do three afternoons per week at the local Credit Union and one nightshift per weekend at the local hospital, so yes, I do find myself drawn to voluntary work in the community.

Originally Posted by bluntslane

Who exactly thinks knock off designer gear is a symbol of wealth? That would be the less productive members of your perfect society, so called "chavs". The net-detractors as opposed to the net-contributors.

If these “net-detractors�, as you deign to call them were made to feel integrated into the community and valued as human beings, I’m sure the situation would change. By the way, it’s not just they who see knockoff designer gear as a symbol of wealth.

Originally Posted by bluntslane

I am from a similar background to a lot of these people and live, I imagine, to a better standard with more relative wealth by dint of my own hard work. Labour has freed me from poverty, by my own choice. I aspired to better myself and did so.

In the Peoples Republic how would you stifle my aspirations, to prevent me trying to compete against my co-operatives? Or would you use my example as the Shining Path for other workers to aspire to? How would you stop the Union walking out because your trying to exploit the masses to increase productivity? AND WHO THE FCUK(tm) GIVES YOU THE RIGHT TO DO SO?

There’d be no necessity for you to forego your aspirations, inasmuch as your aspirations are geared towards recognition and to enhancing your feeling that you’re a “cut above the rest�. All you have to do is to make yourself a valued member of your community and it's yours.

Originally Posted by bluntslane

We live in a democracy, that requires voting and so, opposition. Opposition denies true Socialism, which requires totalitarianism.

You are proposing totalitarianism and I believe that makes you an enemy of the (democratic) state.

However, we all have the vote, I'll see you, figuratively, at the polling both.

Certainly, and the necessity for voting on this or that wouldn’t change in a Socialist society. There, as is the case now, the majority would prevail. The "problem" you see with opposition, would be the same as now. In fact, the feeling of democracy would be greater, because everybody would have an opportunity to voice their opinion, which isn't the case in the so-called democracy in which we live at the moment.

Totalitarianism was with the other systems calling themselves Socialist or Communist. I never proposed such a system and it's been proved to be unworkable and directly opposed to democracy.

I have the feeling that you’re looking for problems where there are none, although I could be wrong.

MsG

Originally Posted by insert-coin-here

Just to summerise for anyone coming to this thread late on the arguement is thus....


The problems facing modern Socialists?

Reality.


And it will continue to remain so for a long time yet.

Personally, I'd love to live in a well-run, successful socialist state like, for example, ...er...
,

Bugsy, more than a handful of people won't vote for your sh1t, ergo would require totalitarianism to implement.

Would you tolerate a majority in your direct democracy voting for a return to the free market? Or would that proposal never make it near the ballot, and the proposer get his collar felt by the Bugsy Jugend?

You are not Der Grosser Ueberzeuger (nice variation on Der Fuehrer, methinks). You are not going to convince people. It you can't manage it here, you're fooked if you think you can manage it in the real world.

Originally Posted by Bugsy

in the Capitalist system, the accepted symbol signifying status is the possession of money, or at least the appearance of wealth (which is why knockoffs of such brands as Versace, Dolce e Gabbana, Blahnik etc are so popular). You see your “superiority� endangered by Socialism because you’d no longer be able to simply brandish your wedge and be automatically regarded as superior. The main thing here is that you long for superiority, and to appear superior, and would do anything to achieve it.

My bold. I nearly spit out my morning tea over this platitude. This may be the case in some sub factions of a society but this isn't the prevailing rule in society as a whole.

I think it's exemplary why people like you don't advance to the higher echelons of our capitalist system. You believe money is key when it comes to status. That's why you fail to understand how it works. It's not about wealth or commodities - it's about good manners, high standards, deportment, good taste, opinion, modesty, tolerance (!), empathy, politeness, etc. In short possessions you can't buy but have to develop.

You probably regard this as "superiority" or "arrogance". But people who lack the above can flash their wealth as much as they want - in the best scenario it will win them a place in the Rotary Club. It may mean "status" in your dictionary but not in mine.

Originally Posted by Bugsy

Originally Posted by jew_unit

Explain to me, as a reasonably wealthy person, why I should give this up to live in a socialist state and then why it is to my advantage to not amass wealth or exploit others for my personal gain.

If I may be so bold as to attempt to provide an answer to your question. You’re, again, arguing within the present system in that you’re transposing Capitalist aspirations onto a Socialist society.

In truth, the objective you wish to achieve is the same, it’s just that the methods are different. Let me explain that more precisely: in the Capitalist system, the accepted symbol signifying status is the possession of money, or at least the appearance of wealth (which is why knockoffs of such brands as Versace, Dolce e Gabbana, Blahnik etc are so popular). You see your “superiority� endangered by Socialism because you’d no longer be able to simply brandish your wedge and be automatically regarded as superior. The main thing here is that you long for superiority, and to appear superior, and would do anything to achieve it.

Under Socialism, you have just as much opportunity to attain the superiority your money gives you at the moment, with the difference that you’d be genuinely and enduringly admired for what you do for the community, and not just superficially because you happen to have a large stash you can flash. If you really have something to offer the community on an enduring basis, then recognition is yours for the taking, if, on the other hand, you reckon that all you have to do is pretend you're a part of the "jet set", I'm afraid you might have to forego the desired recognition.
With regard to exploiting others to attain the authority/recognition/superiority you crave; why would you want to do that, when you can access those attributes simply by being a positive asset to your community? In such a case, striving for more would actually tarnish your reputation instead of enhancing it. But that would, however, be in a Socialist setting.

MsG

Doesn't work. The Soviets tried that, within 30secs of setting the SSSR up the top jobs had been captured by men whos's only interest was power, their power, their power to abuse their position for their benefit and the benefit of those who supported them. The Germans tried that in the DDR. Same thing happened. Humans being humans are not capable of the sort of unselfish total altruism that you seem to believe being a socialism means.

BTW the way I'm firmly in favour of te odd form of capitalisim that exist as it means I can do what I want, where I want, as I want. I earn enough money to buy the things I need to live and buy the toys I want to play with. Not one single one of them is a "Named brand" outside of a small group of people.

Would a socialist system grant me that freedom? So far, based on the evidence of all the attempts to impose true socialism, I very much doubt it.

To be honest, Socialism is a pretty dogma in a number of very badly written books.