ARmy Rumour SErvice

Originally Posted by HIGHLANDER_SPY

Their assessed objectives were the river crossings before the Weser, including the Mittelandkanal. However, during the 70s and early 80s, the ORBAT and role of HQ 1 (BR) Corps changed a number of times, with four Divisions becoming fully armoured, and when 2 Armoured Division returned to the UK (except for a Forward element co-located in the attic of HQ 1 (BR) Corps in Bielefeld, the plan was for a Forward Recce screen across the FEBA, behind which 1 and 4 Armd Divs would meet the forward thrust of 3 Shock Army whilst 3 Armd Div provided the reserve behind them both. The tactics changed as well with at one stage 8 Task Forces (Alfa, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo, Foxtrot, Golf and Hotel) and a Field Force (5FF) replacing the Brigade formations under the 4 Armoured Divisions, reverting to 8 Brigades under 3 Armoured Divisions.

Our Flanking Corps were 1 (German) Corps to the North and 1 (Belgian) Corps to the South. It was also assumed that the Belgian defences through the Harz Mountains were the vulnerable point through which the Sovs could make a flanking attack on 1 (BR) Corps - Thats it in a nutshell as the ORBATS and GDP changed almost every time we had a new Corps Commander.

Being REME and in a workshop for much of my time in BAOR was (like eveyone else in the unit) a little light on awareness of all of this. Do you know how the NATO numbers stacked up against the Warsaw Pact, (men, tanks and planes I guess wolud be the headline items).

I know that numbers do not necessarily count and many other factors come into play, but it would be intersesting to know how many of them and how many of us there were.

Originally Posted by Rothy

I am looking at BAOR in the early 1970s, pulling together orbat details with strategy, tactics and defence plans. I'd like to understand the likely battlegrounds should the worst have happened.

If the Warsaw Pact (3rd Shock Army?) had attacked, which were the main avenues into the 1 British Corps sector that they were likely to have taken, or attempted to take?

Assuming their first objective would be to cross the Weser, where did we expect them to have aimed for? Which were the most likely routes to be defended?

What localities were assumed to be the likely main centres for defence?

I have read that the British sector contained many pre-prepared 'improved positions'. Is this correct? What were the nature of these (mines, trenches?)? Where were these positions concentrated around?

I'd be grateful if anyone can point me in the direction of any useful information relating to the planning and tactics for the period late 60s/early 70s (declassified of course).... or anyone willing to make a few notes.

Thank you in advance.

Sorry I was drunk during the planning bit of the cold war, it was rough in BAOR in the 70`s.

Originally Posted by HIGHLANDER_SPY

the plan was for a Forward Recce screen across the FEBA

Across the FLOT in front of the FEBA. I was that recce soldier.

Originally Posted by Fiona_TG

Being REME and in a workshop for much of my time in BAOR was (like eveyone else in the unit) a little light on awareness of all of this. Do you know how the NATO numbers stacked up against the Warsaw Pact, (men, tanks and planes I guess wolud be the headline items).

I know that numbers do not necessarily count and many other factors come into play, but it would be intersesting to know how many of them and how many of us there were.

In terms of Tanks alone, the FIVE Divisions of 3 Shock Army outnumbered 1 (BR) Corps by about 4:1, but they also had superior numbers of tactical battlefield nuclear weapons. There were FIVE Armies in GSFG, not including the 6 Divisions of the East German National Volksarmee, their Border Troops or reinforcements in other WarsawPact countries and from the Soviet Union itself. Their tactics were simple - fight through until spent and then another formation would pass through the spent one until they too were knacked and so on... - I will give you a fuller answer when I get home tonight.

Originally Posted by Grubby Bum III

BAOR staff disinformation (misinformation?) in the '70s was that, of the two Soviet thrusts (one against the US, the other against UK), the Russkies themselves estimated that they would overrun the south in a couple of days, but that it would take them at least 6 days to reach the Channnel. No idea where the information came from, but the same people told us that the 7.62 SLR was vastly superior to the AK-47 .....

DId no one think to ask how big they thought Russian fuel tanks were, the channel in 6 days unless they brought a fuel pipeline with them would be imposible. Not to mention Ammunition and Rations, Casevac, breakdowns etc. STill good to know they were optomistic about Nato's chances!

Originally Posted by HIGHLANDER_SPY

In terms of Tanks alone, the FIVE Divisions of 3 Shock Army outnumbered 1 (BR) Corps by about 4:1, but they also had superior numbers of tactical battlefield nuclear weapons. There were FIVE Armies in GSFG, not including the 6 Divisions of the East German National Volksarmee, their Border Troops or reinforcements in other WarsawPact countries and from the Soviet Union itself. Their tactics were simple - fight through until spent and then another formation would pass through the spent one until they too were knacked and so on... - I will give you a fuller answer when I get home tonight.

Many thanks, all good stuff to leanr about.

I think the assumption we had was that "they" would outnumber "us" by lots in most, if not all, departments. Further, there seemed to be a view (not sure if it was just gallows humour) that they would overrun us pretty quickly and that the conventional forces were there to hold things up long enough so that the appropriate person could get to the nuclear button and make that happen, no other rolls of the dice being available.

Thank you for starting this thread you rat!!! I now have the Sibesse Gap, Paderborn Bowlet al going through my head all over again after years of peace and quiet.

Plus all the crap from 4 Bde about counterpenetration. Nightmares again of producing slides, OHP foils and Gawd know what else for the Bde Int Study Day!!!!!! Never were so many red lines drawn by so few for the 'entertainment' of so thick/disinterested/asleep!!!!

Thankfully we had the mighty Chieftain which would have done stirling work ,if we had possesed a teleportation device, oh and the bedford rl which had a lot more service than its crew , and the ultra reliable 432 and its derivatives, i was pretty much convinced of a quick W P victory. I know their kit was crap as well but they just had so much more crap kit.