Originally Posted by One_of_the_strange

The elephant in the room sits neatly on the feature on the map known as the Durand Line. It means nothing, the locals don't think of themselves as either Pakistani or Afghan. Both the city state of Kabul and associated northern kingmaker tribes (what ignorant westerners refer to as the Afghan govt) or the coastal failing state to the South (ditto Pakistan) wish to extend their sway over this area. Both see it as a matter of national survival. And it probably is. Thing is, destablise Pakistan and their nuclear arsenal may go up for grabs. Destablise the Mayor of Kabul's fiefdom and who would notice. That is why pushing Pakistan is a profoundly stupid thing to do.

And twas ever thus. One potential solution might be a bit of elephant hunting. I know it's verging on the realms of fantasy but a Pashtun Homeland might ultimately save everyone a lot of trouble - especially given that nukes are involved.

Originally Posted by One_of_the_strange

The elephant in the room sits neatly on the feature on the map known as the Durand Line. It means nothing, the locals don't think of themselves as either Pakistani or Afghan. Both the city state of Kabul and associated northern kingmaker tribes (what ignorant westerners refer to as the Afghan govt) or the coastal failing state to the South (ditto Pakistan) wish to extend their sway over this area. Both see it as a matter of national survival. And it probably is. Thing is, destablise Pakistan and their nuclear arsenal may go up for grabs. Destablise the Mayor of Kabul's fiefdom and who would notice. That is why pushing Pakistan is a profoundly stupid thing to do.

Why push Pakistan? Help the civilian goverment shore up its powerbase, bring the ISI to heal and just maybe with the improvements hopefully delivered through Western aid the average Pakistani OR/civilain may be persuaded that the taliban are not a good thing.

Originally Posted by ostvic

Originally Posted by One_of_the_strange

The elephant in the room sits neatly on the feature on the map known as the Durand Line. It means nothing, the locals don't think of themselves as either Pakistani or Afghan. Both the city state of Kabul and associated northern kingmaker tribes (what ignorant westerners refer to as the Afghan govt) or the coastal failing state to the South (ditto Pakistan) wish to extend their sway over this area. Both see it as a matter of national survival. And it probably is. Thing is, destablise Pakistan and their nuclear arsenal may go up for grabs. Destablise the Mayor of Kabul's fiefdom and who would notice. That is why pushing Pakistan is a profoundly stupid thing to do.

Why push Pakistan? Help the civilian goverment shore up its powerbase, bring the ISI to heal and just maybe with the improvements hopefully delivered through Western aid the average Pakistani OR/civilain may be persuaded that the taliban are not a good thing.

Because the only way the civilian Govt can shore up its powerbase is to give the ISI free rein to get the Pushtun (including the Taliban) on side. If they succeed AFG will cease to exist in its current form - which is something we are not prepared to allow. However, and the thing we fail to acknowledge, is that Karzai wishes to do exactly the same thing. This has the side effect of making Pakistan fall apart. Karzai doesn't care about that, he reckons these stupid Westerners will do all the bleeding necessary to sort that mess out for his benefit.

Edited to add:

And the Taliban are irrelevant. They only mattered in the past as they allowed AQ 1.0 freedom to operate. Persuade them that they can do better delivering what remains of AQ 1.0 to us and we can all go home.

Originally Posted by One_of_the_strange

Originally Posted by ostvic

Originally Posted by One_of_the_strange

The elephant in the room sits neatly on the feature on the map known as the Durand Line. It means nothing, the locals don't think of themselves as either Pakistani or Afghan. Both the city state of Kabul and associated northern kingmaker tribes (what ignorant westerners refer to as the Afghan govt) or the coastal failing state to the South (ditto Pakistan) wish to extend their sway over this area. Both see it as a matter of national survival. And it probably is. Thing is, destablise Pakistan and their nuclear arsenal may go up for grabs. Destablise the Mayor of Kabul's fiefdom and who would notice. That is why pushing Pakistan is a profoundly stupid thing to do.

Why push Pakistan? Help the civilian goverment shore up its powerbase, bring the ISI to heal and just maybe with the improvements hopefully delivered through Western aid the average Pakistani OR/civilain may be persuaded that the taliban are not a good thing.

Because the only way the civilian Govt can shore up its powerbase is to give the ISI free rein to get the Pushtun (including the Taliban) on side. If they succeed AFG will cease to exist in its current form - which is something we are not prepared to allow. However, and the thing we fail to acknowledge, is that Karzai wishes to do exactly the same thing. This has the side effect of making Pakistan fall apart. Karzai doesn't care about that, he reckons these stupid Westerners will do all the bleeding necessary to sort that mess out for his benefit.

Edited to add:

And the Taliban are irrelevant. They only mattered in the past as they allowed AQ 1.0 freedom to operate. Persuade them that they can do better delivering what remains of AQ 1.0 to us and we can all go home.

Why would the ISI be onside? They still dream of General Zia's glorious Islamic state and the spread of "Islamic" inspired armed movements in the Kashmir and of course the Taliban.
My points referred to stabilising and helping the Pakistani Civilian Government not Karzai.

The idea that the Taliban will hand over AQ is rather simplistic when one factors in the Pashtun code of honour and the amount of help provided to the Taliban by AQ

Mmmm this thread seems to have strayed a bit

One_of_the_strange...summarise away all you like, but your interpretation of ‘my last rant’ is inaccurate!

I recall nothing that I said or inferred that remotely suggested that I would counsel or condone mass murder, neither do I believe what I did suggest amounts to ethnic cleansing.

Of course, from the British perspective, they would never condone or participate or facilitate something, anything, that remotely resembles ethnic cleansing would they?

I would just mention Kosovo and whilst I would not support the Serb position I would just remind you that the Kosovo Serbs were facing an escalating vicious terror campaign waged by non indigenous Albanians.

One of the accusations against the Kosovo Serbs was that they were embarked on a counter campaign of ethnic cleansing of the Albanians, the deployment of a coalition including the British did nothing to return the situation to that of status quo anti and set about promoting dialogue and coexistence, instead they helped create and support regime change that amounted to nothing short of ethnic cleansing of the Kosovo Serb population.

Your accusation that I have labeled the Arab population of Gaza, Judea and Samaria as sub human is completed false and baseless and you should retract such an unfounded accusation.

What I have said is that the Arab populations of Gaza, Judea and Samaria are non indigenous, that these people were recognized as being Egyptian or Jordanian citizens until relatively recently and possessed Egyptian and Jordanian passports.

Point of fact, some four years ago when someone had the temerity during peace negotiations to mention this fact, the Jordanian authorities were swift to arbitrarily and immediately announce that they would in the future refuse to recognize those passports as valid.

Plain fact here is that we’re being repeatedly told that these poor people are living in utter poverty and destitution. Now it seems more than reasonable to me that if these people are in such dire straits due to circumstance and because they are being cruelly used by the terror cells, then if the circumstances arose whereby they could collectively move on mass elsewhere then they would do so.

Given the size of the State of Israel compared with the surrounding Arab States, then this begs the question, why have their Arab Brethren not embraced them and resettled them long ago, given that huge numbers of Jews were similarly expelled and driven from their homes in Arab States in 1948 how come we still allegedly have such huge numbers of so-called refugees?

The practical and financial abilities for these Arab States to assimilate and settle these so-called refugees has been deliberately avoided, the Gulf States have almost inexhaustible finances that could have been made available decades ago ... then there would be no so-called Middle East Conflict!

These people are either one vast human shield and are victims of circumstance or they are willing camp followers.

What I actually advocated was that if Israel was given cause to mount another incursion because of renewed or continued violence and/or missile and mortar fire against Negev communities, then the next time, the operation should include calculated missions to remove the fence barriers between Gaza and Egypt thereby opening up the a means of self repatriation.

That next time, Israel should mount a sweep commencing in the North of the Gaza Strip that systematically swept southwards, that the IDF should primarily mount operations to eliminate the Hamas and the Fatah terror elements and secondarily to that, that this would, as a consequence of those operations, and with the border fence down, trigger a mass act of self repatriation to Egypt.

Even if I had inferred as you falsely allege, a supposed ethnic cleansing of Gaza, pray tell me this, provided Israel did not use armed force against unarmed non combatants during this, what would be wrong with that?

Hard Fact.

No matter how desperate the desperate for oil and for compliant moderate Arab States the Western powers may be, their desire to force Israel to concede to an ever increasing strangulation of their own self existence to appease will never achieve anything.

What the hell possesses the mindset of the supposed great and good and their so-called diplomats?

It is patiently obvious that notions that the West can compel Israel to concede and go on conceding in the face of terror and with the expectation that this will eventually lead to the peaceful coexistence of two states living side by side is never going to happen

This leaves Israel with two options where Gaza is concerned.

These people who call themselves Palestinians stated and have repeatedly stated internationally that ‘all they want’ is their own ‘Palestinian State’ established on pre-1967 territories.

Israel moved back from Gaza, they removed themselves back beyond the pre-1967 border and created a security zone fenced off. They removed the settlers and dismantled the settlements and at the same time they removed the forward mounting bases of the IDF.

These people should have inherited vast crops left growing in the settlement greenhouses and on the land, they inherited at a stroke vast numbers of family units in which they could have resettled the impoverished and the so-called refugees...instead these people ransacked the properties, smashed up the greenhouses and made the units uninhabitable ... I’m sure that to this statement of fact some will rant that Israel bulldozed the settlements ...wrong ... they only bulldozed synagogues and sensitive buildings.

With Israel completely out of Gaza and with the Rafah crossing in Egyptian hands, where is the justification for the rain of missiles and mortars that have fallen ceaselessly for eight years on Israeli civilian communities right across the Negev?

Hard Fact.

This people, whether led by Hamas or Fatah, have no limitations to their goals to eliminate the whole of the State of Israel and to annihilate the Jewish population, they are determined to do that in stages as evidenced in the PLO 1974 Phased Plan declaration.

Hard Fact.

All Israel has to do for these people to succeed is to do nothing, not to respond to shootings, not to respond to bombings, not to respond to attacks against the crossing points with the aim of kidnapping or killing soldiers, not to respond to missiles and mortars which have been gradually refined to have longer range, be more stable and accurate and more potent in capability.

Hard Fact

All Israel has to do, is what Olmart once murmured, that they are tired of war and that they may need to consider evacuating Negev communities back beyond the range of those missiles and mortars.

Hard Fact.

Israel moves back and these people move forward, eventually they will be able to hit heavily populated towns and Cities inside Israel, then noose is around their necks and is tightening to strangle the State of Israel.

Hard Fact.

There is but one alternative, instead of evacuating the Negev communities and conceding more and more land to an enemy who will simply shift his front accordingly, Israel should initiate a act of massed self repatriation beyond the Egyptian border.

Hard Fact.

There remains an enduring responsibility on the Western powers to recognize the originally planned divisions of the mandated territories with recognizable and defined borders which define demarcation between states and where recognizable national governments can exercise responsibility for security and be held accountable for border security internationally.

One_of_the_strange, I now believe you owe me an unreserved apology for baseless and false accusations that I was counseling ethnic cleansing and massed murder.

Question? Has anyone here ever had sustained exposure to either an Arab family from Gaza, Judea or Samaria? Had a prolonged period of time with them to build trust and a rapport and privately discuss what is taking place?

Has anyone here ever had sustained exposure to a Jewish family residing inside Israel, especially one that resides right on the border with Gaza and has endured prolonged missile and mortar fire?

A Jewish family that until 2000 used to collaborate with Palestinians to transfer skills of managing milking herds of cows, invited these people into their homes and have eaten with them, celebrated their families celebrations with them, exchanged gifts with them, and then after 2000 have had those same people ignore them, insult them, spit at them and throw rocks at them?

A family so complex that it cries for the children of Gaza, it cried for the uprooted settlers as they filed past their home? Whose Son is a reservist tank commander who was called up to take his crew into Gaza and therefore whose prayers were for their Sons safety whilst at the same time included prayers for those Palestinian families they have now lost touch with and for the children of Gaza?

Thought Not!

As I said earlier on the logical conclusion of your argument would be to move the Jews out of the middle east, say to the US. That really would be a solution. They are not indigenous to the region either. Certainly not from the POV of the rest of the locals.

Originally Posted by Arandale

One_of_the_strange...summarise away all you like, but your interpretation of ‘my last rant’ is inaccurate!

I recall nothing that I said or inferred that remotely suggested that I would counsel or condone mass murder, neither do I believe what I did suggest amounts to ethnic cleansing.

certainly sounded to me like you condone it:

Originally Posted by Arandale

Civilians have always been caught up in armed conflict, willingly or unwillingly, the use of a vast population as a human shield should never convince a commander not to attack where he would otherwise have done so.

strange - presence of civilians is usually a major factor influencing tactics. some might describe your attitude, if implemented, as barbaric.

plus, you're clearly implying, in a very racist fashion, that the deaths of civilians would be no great loss:

These people dance and celebrate in the streets when Israeli lives are lost... They give no quarter, they respect no known norms of humanity, they deserve no quarter, they emulate indigenously from beyond the historical borders of Israel, from Jordan, from Syria and from Egypt.

and if you don't think what you suggested amounts to ethnic cleansing, you need to give your head a wobble:

As I say, the next time, the IAF should ‘open' the border with Egypt from aloft and then systematically commence a incursion with the express purpose of engaging and eliminating Hamas and Fatah but with the secondary objective of triggering a repatriation of these people by stampede...

That next time, Israel should mount a sweep commencing in the North of the Gaza Strip that systematically swept southwards, that the IDF should primarily mount operations to eliminate the Hamas and the Fatah terror elements and secondarily to that, that this would, as a consequence of those operations, and with the border fence down, trigger a mass act of self repatriation to Egypt.

Even if I had inferred as you falsely allege, a supposed ethnic cleansing of Gaza, pray tell me this, provided Israel did not use armed force against unarmed non combatants during this, what would be wrong with that?

i mean... wow.

There is but one alternative, instead of evacuating the Negev communities and conceding more and more land to an enemy who will simply shift his front accordingly, Israel should initiate a act of massed self repatriation beyond the Egyptian border.

One_of_the_strange, I now believe you owe me an unreserved apology for baseless and false accusations that I was counseling ethnic cleansing and massed murder.

does he bollocks. you are counselling ethnic cleansing. as for mass murder... that seems to be down to the interpretation of your remarks. with the tactics you advocate, you would probably just class the killing of lots of innocent civilians as collateral damage. and besides, they don't really count do they arandale? they're not israelis after all.

Question? Has anyone here ever had sustained exposure to blah blah blah

nope. but i've had sustained exposure to hundreds of people who have been ethnically cleansed in a manner very similar to what you advocate.


Hard Fact.

You seem to have a basic misunderstanding of what "ethnic cleansing" is.

Hard Fact.

You sound just like the Bosnian Serb leadership in the 1990s.

Hard Fact.

You need to look up "inferred".

Hard Fact.

Writing "Hard Fact" like that is irritating, arrogant and condescending. please stop

I cannot understand why these two muslim nations (Israel and Gaza) cannot put aside there quarrels and get on together.

Originally Posted by afghanman

I cannot understand why these two muslim nations (Israel and Gaza) cannot put aside there quarrels and get on together.

waaahnker.

Originally Posted by afghanman

I cannot understand why these two muslim nations (Israel and Gaza) cannot put aside there quarrels and get on together.

That'll come as shock to the Israeli government, not to mention every rabbi in the country. Who'd have thought that, all these years, while they all thought they were Jewish, they were actually Muslims? If only they'd known, all this could have been sorted out in 1948.

I'd be entertained to hear the rationale for Gaza being a "nation" as well, but let's take this one little bitty step at a time, shall we?