fook me why is everybody over complicating the matter here. you wanna increase muscle mass train in the hypertrophy range (6 - 15 reps) and consume vast amounts of calories (rough guide 1g protein per 1lb bodyweight and roughly 1.5g carbs per 1lb bw). job done
oh and give each muscle group 48hrs rest before training again.

Originally Posted by Ian1983

Originally Posted by GrizzlyPanda

Originally Posted by Ian1983

Originally Posted by jk22

Originally Posted by psychoswar

Re: kettlebells.

Cheers for the advice. I'll be off to a gym that sells them tomorrow and will maybe even take up membership there, again.

There are some people who swear by kettlebells, but then there are some people that say what can a kettlebell achieve that a dumbell can't

Personally swings are about the best thing with them. You should mix it up with dumbells and bodyweight exercises.

And I don't personally understand those people.

All a DB is is a weight with the centre of mass shifted away from the holding position. Really, why bother.

In regards to swings, they need to be built up to allow the tendons to strengthen. You can have some real issues if you start doing dynamic effort without the building up phase with weights.

Try using them properly, or even using them at all
They are stupidly more efficient than dumbbells. The leverage is completely different, there are many actions that you can't do with a dumbbell that you can with them, and they allow a smooth transition between movement.

Define more efficient?
From a strict pov, a DB is more efficient as you have no leverage, but I don't think that is what you were getting at.

Name some actions you can do with one, that you can't with a DB?

Allow smooth transition? For example the transition on a clean and press is easier with a KB then a DB. Is that such an example? I do hope not.


FYI I have used them before when I had access to them and they are 'ok' if I haven't had to pay for the things. But I don't see how anyone could justify them for the price tag that comes with them. Plus how people hold them up as the holy grail. All they are is a cannon ball with a handle for gods sake.

My fault, should have worded better.
It's more efficient by the way of a higher and wider ranging workload for the same usage of a DB. By the nature of the shaping of the KB, it not only reduces leverage via the weight extending out from support - but also creates instability on additional planes bringing a far higher number of muscle fibers into play, not only in the immediate vicinity but across the whole body. Should have worded the action part a bit better too, as this was what I meant. The firing patterns you can achieve with a KB you simply cannot achieve with a DB.
As for the smooth transition, you said you've used one. The nature of the device provides it an adaptive aspect that a weight squarely in your hands cannot. It allows it to slide and flip with the movement and keeps it fluid. I didn't mean by way of making the exercise easier.

Originally Posted by wilki6467

fook me why is everybody over complicating the matter here. you wanna increase muscle mass train in the hypertrophy range (6 - 15 reps) and consume vast amounts of calories (rough guide 1g protein per 1lb bodyweight and roughly 1.5g carbs per 1lb bw). job done
oh and give each muscle group 48hrs rest before training again.

Death by analysis.

People always complicate things, but then people always think their way is best and so the tooing and froing commences.

Just wait, someone is bound to say something about your post.

Originally Posted by GrizzlyPanda

Originally Posted by Ian1983

Originally Posted by GrizzlyPanda

Originally Posted by Ian1983

Originally Posted by jk22

Originally Posted by psychoswar

Re: kettlebells.

Cheers for the advice. I'll be off to a gym that sells them tomorrow and will maybe even take up membership there, again.

There are some people who swear by kettlebells, but then there are some people that say what can a kettlebell achieve that a dumbell can't

Personally swings are about the best thing with them. You should mix it up with dumbells and bodyweight exercises.

And I don't personally understand those people.

All a DB is is a weight with the centre of mass shifted away from the holding position. Really, why bother.

In regards to swings, they need to be built up to allow the tendons to strengthen. You can have some real issues if you start doing dynamic effort without the building up phase with weights.

Try using them properly, or even using them at all
They are stupidly more efficient than dumbbells. The leverage is completely different, there are many actions that you can't do with a dumbbell that you can with them, and they allow a smooth transition between movement.

Define more efficient?
From a strict pov, a DB is more efficient as you have no leverage, but I don't think that is what you were getting at.

Name some actions you can do with one, that you can't with a DB?

Allow smooth transition? For example the transition on a clean and press is easier with a KB then a DB. Is that such an example? I do hope not.


FYI I have used them before when I had access to them and they are 'ok' if I haven't had to pay for the things. But I don't see how anyone could justify them for the price tag that comes with them. Plus how people hold them up as the holy grail. All they are is a cannon ball with a handle for gods sake.

My fault, should have worded better.
It's more efficient by the way of a higher and wider ranging workload for the same usage of a DB. By the nature of the shaping of the KB, it not only reduces leverage via the weight extending out from support - but also creates instability on additional planes bringing a far higher number of muscle fibers into play, not only in the immediate vicinity but across the whole body. Should have worded the action part a bit better too, as this was what I meant. The firing patterns you can achieve with a KB you simply cannot achieve with a DB.
As for the smooth transition, you said you've used one. The nature of the device provides it an adaptive aspect that a weight squarely in your hands cannot. It allows it to slide and flip with the movement and keeps it fluid. I didn't mean by way of making the exercise easier.

I thought you would have meant something like that, but I felt petty and picked you up on your meaning .

My bold, you mean increases there right?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the use of KB is primarily for explosive movements right? I want a clarification on this before I respond as I am not a heavy user of them and you seem to hail the apsects quite heavily so I assume you have a good working knowledge of them.

Originally Posted by Ian1983

Originally Posted by wilki6467

fook me why is everybody over complicating the matter here. you wanna increase muscle mass train in the hypertrophy range (6 - 15 reps) and consume vast amounts of calories (rough guide 1g protein per 1lb bodyweight and roughly 1.5g carbs per 1lb bw). job done
oh and give each muscle group 48hrs rest before training again.

Death by analysis.

People always complicate things, but then people always think their way is best and so the tooing and froing commences.

Just wait, someone is bound to say something about your post.

Yep, i'll say something about his post. It's fucking dogshit just as you are. I bet you're built like an Ethiopian marathon runner.

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

Originally Posted by Ian1983

Originally Posted by wilki6467

fook me why is everybody over complicating the matter here. you wanna increase muscle mass train in the hypertrophy range (6 - 15 reps) and consume vast amounts of calories (rough guide 1g protein per 1lb bodyweight and roughly 1.5g carbs per 1lb bw). job done
oh and give each muscle group 48hrs rest before training again.

Death by analysis.

People always complicate things, but then people always think their way is best and so the tooing and froing commences.

Just wait, someone is bound to say something about your post.

Yep, i'll say something about his post. It's fucking dogshit just as you are. I bet you're built like an Ethiopian marathon runner.

Moi or the poster?

Originally Posted by Ian1983

Originally Posted by GrizzlyPanda

Originally Posted by Ian1983

Originally Posted by GrizzlyPanda

Baynet and Dave, might I just say well done on showing you clearly have no fcuking clue whatsoever.
It's amazing the amount of baseless s*** that comes out when people start talking about fitness.

Might I also add that it severely pisses me off when people say you have to train only once a week on a muscle group, or that you need days of rest. You can train nearly every damn day if you wish, so long as you train, eat and rest properly. Neither do you need to gulp protein supplements.
And for those people who just rock off down the gym and sling bits of metal about, you have no idea of what real functional strength means either.

On the first and second part I agree. Body building culture and the perception of overtraining and if you're sore it must be working have worked their way far too deep into the training mindset of a lot of people.

About your bit I bolded, the same could be said about bw only culture people.

Different tools for different jobs.
The only way after a certain point to increase strength is via increased weight on the exercise.

My bold. If you play by the idea of what most ironheads see as bodyweight ie just doing pushups, chinups etc then you could say that. You have to enter the world of a gymnast, who train the vast majority of their work using only their bodyweight and have strength surpassing far beyond most - even dedicated weight lifters. Resistance, not weight, is the stimulus for strength. Through the reduction of leverage over a given weight, resistance can be multiplied to stupid levels providing a workload equivalent to a much much higher weight. Not only that, but through the action of reducing leverage you force the body to learn to function maximally at the extremes in range of motion, let alone training higher levels of balance, proprioception etc. On top of this, the functional aspect of all this in using your body fluidly and under all situations is far superior than just chucking a weight around.
There is a reason why although gymnasts can outclass a gym monkey at their own game, a gym monkey can't ever beat a gymnast at theirs.

Thought you'd throw gymnasts out there.

A bit biased saying a gymnast versus a weight lifter.
I would say take a better cross comparison of needs and adaptions would be a decent power lifter or more fairer, a olympic lifter.
A very much doubt a gymnast would be able to do much that a olympic lifter can. Sure they could probably manhandle a decent weight, but they wouldn't have a equivalence explosive nature that the olympic lifter (OL) does. Just the same as I doubt the OL could perform a iron cross (although I would bet the lower weights would have a pretty good go at it).

It depends on why they are training and what their goals are. If you want to be able to do a planche press up and iron cross, do gymnastics (and I must say, not a particulaly strong lower body. Gymnasts aren't well known for strong lower bodys you know). If you want to be explosive from the ground up, go for the olympic lifting.

On a side note- you know gymnasts lift to compliment their training right?


edit- just thought I'd throw out there that most gymnasts start at a very early age as it takes a long old time for their adaptions to come about, plus they do tend to be on the light side.
If someone in their mid 20's decided to take up a routine, from scratch, do you think advocating gymnastics would be a good idea over lifting?
Ofcourse lets assume instruction is high level for both (ie not reading how to squat on the internet and not looking at a gynmast book on how to perform a iron cross).

In return, I thought you'd say that.
A core aspect of gymnastics work is bringing together strength and speed in a dynamic fashion to form explosive power, from that comment I can see you've not been too familiar with gymnastic work?
It's also a common misconception that gymnasts have weak lower bodies. This isn't the case. Like I pointed out earlier in the thread, ever tried to do jumping weighted single leg squats aiming for height and distance? It's not pretty.
Yes, some gymnasts lift to compliment. You'll find that it is in no way a majority though, and even elites have found they prefer not to. Weighted vests etc are used at times, but as a bonus when reducing leverage in a movement is not best, inachievable or to make a progression easier.


As for your edit comment, not too familiar with the influx of people of all ages and all backgrounds finding gymnastic progression to be phenomenal? Lots of communities of such people out there, Gymnastic Bodies is one example. Lots of people getting in on the act due to the influence of Parkour etc too.

Originally Posted by Ian1983

Moi or the poster?

Wiki. 6-15 reps for hypertrophy my fucking arse. Hypertrophy will occur from any amount of reps. conducting 400 pressups a day will produce hypertrophy just as conducting 3 reps will. What is optimal for one though will not necessarily be optimal for someone else. Indeed, around 5 - 10 reps seems the norm though that's because nearly everyone looking to add mass train within that rep range.

what a tool. were not splitting hairs here. 6 - 15 is considerd the range for maximal hypertrophy is what i meant and you know that too your just choosing to be anal about it. im trying to keep it basic and if you aim for somewhere in that rep range you wont go far wrong as a beginer is what im saying. as for trying to get personal about my build you just making yourself look like a kid.

Originally Posted by Ian1983

Originally Posted by GrizzlyPanda

Originally Posted by Ian1983

Originally Posted by GrizzlyPanda

Originally Posted by Ian1983

Originally Posted by jk22

Originally Posted by psychoswar

Re: kettlebells.

Cheers for the advice. I'll be off to a gym that sells them tomorrow and will maybe even take up membership there, again.

There are some people who swear by kettlebells, but then there are some people that say what can a kettlebell achieve that a dumbell can't

Personally swings are about the best thing with them. You should mix it up with dumbells and bodyweight exercises.

And I don't personally understand those people.

All a DB is is a weight with the centre of mass shifted away from the holding position. Really, why bother.

In regards to swings, they need to be built up to allow the tendons to strengthen. You can have some real issues if you start doing dynamic effort without the building up phase with weights.

Try using them properly, or even using them at all
They are stupidly more efficient than dumbbells. The leverage is completely different, there are many actions that you can't do with a dumbbell that you can with them, and they allow a smooth transition between movement.

Define more efficient?
From a strict pov, a DB is more efficient as you have no leverage, but I don't think that is what you were getting at.

Name some actions you can do with one, that you can't with a DB?

Allow smooth transition? For example the transition on a clean and press is easier with a KB then a DB. Is that such an example? I do hope not.


FYI I have used them before when I had access to them and they are 'ok' if I haven't had to pay for the things. But I don't see how anyone could justify them for the price tag that comes with them. Plus how people hold them up as the holy grail. All they are is a cannon ball with a handle for gods sake.

My fault, should have worded better.
It's more efficient by the way of a higher and wider ranging workload for the same usage of a DB. By the nature of the shaping of the KB, it not only reduces leverage via the weight extending out from support - but also creates instability on additional planes bringing a far higher number of muscle fibers into play, not only in the immediate vicinity but across the whole body. Should have worded the action part a bit better too, as this was what I meant. The firing patterns you can achieve with a KB you simply cannot achieve with a DB.
As for the smooth transition, you said you've used one. The nature of the device provides it an adaptive aspect that a weight squarely in your hands cannot. It allows it to slide and flip with the movement and keeps it fluid. I didn't mean by way of making the exercise easier.

I thought you would have meant something like that, but I felt petty and picked you up on your meaning .

My bold, you mean increases there right?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the use of KB is primarily for explosive movements right? I want a clarification on this before I respond as I am not a heavy user of them and you seem to hail the apsects quite heavily so I assume you have a good working knowledge of them.

Urm, weight further from support REDUCES leverage over said weight and makes it harder. How does it increase leverage?

Aye, KBs are primarily used for explosive movement as their nature more easily allows for it, but can be used just as easily for slow work and still provide more benefit than a DB of the same weight.