Thread: Angels and Demons

Originally Posted by Ord_Sgt

So you don't like Browns novels then I take it? ;)

It's not that I don't like them as such, it's that the man simply cannot write. There are stories in them, but he is incapable of presenting those stories.

Originally Posted by Croque_Monsieur

Umm...Browns book are works of fiction, written at a level accessible to masses, and judging by the sales figures, he did a bloody good job. The Brown novels are just another light holiday read.

Methinks Ottar had too high expectations. Dickens it ain't and it ain't trying to be either.

The Harry Potter novels are works of fiction, not only written at a level acceptable to the masses, but acceptable to children. They're not my cup of tea, but they are written by someone with an ability to use the English language. They have plots, characterisation, dialogue, a better use of vocabulary and mostly correct grammar and syntax. Bernard Cornwell writes formulaic trash, but his work too is well written, accessible and entertaining. Dan Brown writes like a 10 year old, and treats his audience the same. Being a 'light holiday read' isn't an excuse for it being unmitigated shit.

Figures would suggest that The Sun does a bloody good job, along with Coronation Street. It's not usually accurate to judge something by its popularity.

As Dickens was writing for the masses, that is precisely what it is trying to be. It only succeeds in that Dickens is also over-rated tosh.

Originally Posted by YesItsMe

Sorry, Ottar, but I really like the books.
As mentioned before, they're only supposed to be entertaining as far as I'm concerned.
Never said they'd be educating or even prosa.

If I want to read something sophisticated, I'll choose Shakespeare and not Brown.

But you are German, yes? In which case if you are reading them in English, his overly simplified use of English wouldn't make a huge difference to you, or if you are reading them in German it may just be that the translator could and did use language better than Brown.

Incidentally, Shakespeare was a playwright, not a novelist, his work was meant to be performed, not read. Also, his work wasn't sophisticated, it too was meant for the consumption of the masses. Shakespeare wasn't writing for the 21st century audience: Brown would seem high-brow and complicated for Shakespeare's intended audience.

Originally Posted by Virgil

he apparently does'nt realize that the Swiss Guards are in a different country--Vatican City--and aren't allowed to roam all over the city of Rome which is basically part of the adjoining country of Italy. And it just goes on and on. Very disappointed.

He took that one stage further when he had an armed French police Inspector chasing his suspect across Blighty, with authority over the British police.
He strikes me as someone that doesn't understand Europe being a continent of many countries, and the difference between the Federal States the US has and independent nation states.

Originally Posted by Stickyend

I like them too. For what they are, their not a bad read. Stories somewhat unbelievable, so what? They are page turners and take me through them at a cracking pace.

I think the criticism of his books is a tad harsh. Fine, if he was attempting fine writing, just too harsh for what is a light thriller.

They are a terrible read, I may have to post a critique of his writing to show just how bad it is. I don't care that the stories are unbelievable, so is much of Shakespeare's work, all of Pratchett's work, in fact, most fiction writing.

Criticism of his books is much deserved. Light reading doesn't have to be and shouldn't be so poorly written. Just because I can't afford to put a Constable or Turner on my walls doesn't mean I should make do with monkey scribble or something that looks like it was done by a child.

I have neither read the Davinci Code, nor seen the film until last night. Oh dear, I found the whole thing entertaining in the wrong way. Quite frankly it's lame and boring. Did manage to see it until the end, just. Not my 'bag' and won't be rushing to see the next instalment.

Originally Posted by StickyEnd

Originally Posted by YesItsMe

Sorry, Ottar, but I really like the books.
As mentioned before, they're only supposed to be entertaining as far as I'm concerned.
Never said they'd be educating or even prosa.

If I want to read something sophisticated, I'll choose Shakespeare and not Brown. ;)

I like them too. For what they are, their not a bad read. Stories somewhat unbelievable, so what? They are page turners and take me through them at a cracking pace.

I think the criticism of his books is a tad harsh. Fine, if he was attempting fine writing, just too harsh for what is a light thriller.

Shakespeare is good. But it is hard work to get the language if you was not taught it at school. That makes repeat reading necessary for me to get the jokes and story. Not something I would take on holliday.

Then again, I also like 2000AD and Spiderman. So what do I know?

My dear chap, your good taste is beyond question! :D

Originally Posted by ottar

Originally Posted by Ord_Sgt

So you don't like Browns novels then I take it? ;)

It's not that I don't like them as such, it's that the man simply cannot write. There are stories in them, but he is incapable of presenting those stories.

Originally Posted by Croque_Monsieur

Umm...Browns book are works of fiction, written at a level accessible to masses, and judging by the sales figures, he did a bloody good job. The Brown novels are just another light holiday read.

Methinks Ottar had too high expectations. Dickens it ain't and it ain't trying to be either.

The Harry Potter novels are works of fiction, not only written at a level acceptable to the masses, but acceptable to children. They're not my cup of tea, but they are written by someone with an ability to use the English language. They have plots, characterisation, dialogue, a better use of vocabulary and mostly correct grammar and syntax. Bernard Cornwell writes formulaic trash, but his work too is well written, accessible and entertaining. Dan Brown writes like a 10 year old, and treats his audience the same. Being a 'light holiday read' isn't an excuse for it being unmitigated shit.

Figures would suggest that The Sun does a bloody good job, along with Coronation Street. It's not usually accurate to judge something by its popularity.

As Dickens was writing for the masses, that is precisely what it is trying to be. It only succeeds in that Dickens is also over-rated tosh.

Originally Posted by YesItsMe

Sorry, Ottar, but I really like the books.
As mentioned before, they're only supposed to be entertaining as far as I'm concerned.
Never said they'd be educating or even prosa.

If I want to read something sophisticated, I'll choose Shakespeare and not Brown.

But you are German, yes? In which case if you are reading them in English, his overly simplified use of English wouldn't make a huge difference to you, or if you are reading them in German it may just be that the translator could and did use language better than Brown.

Incidentally, Shakespeare was a playwright, not a novelist, his work was meant to be performed, not read. Also, his work wasn't sophisticated, it too was meant for the consumption of the masses. Shakespeare wasn't writing for the 21st century audience: Brown would seem high-brow and complicated for Shakespeare's intended audience.

Originally Posted by Virgil

he apparently does'nt realize that the Swiss Guards are in a different country--Vatican City--and aren't allowed to roam all over the city of Rome which is basically part of the adjoining country of Italy. And it just goes on and on. Very disappointed.

He took that one stage further when he had an armed French police Inspector chasing his suspect across Blighty, with authority over the British police.
He strikes me as someone that doesn't understand Europe being a continent of many countries, and the difference between the Federal States the US has and independent nation states.

Originally Posted by Stickyend

I like them too. For what they are, their not a bad read. Stories somewhat unbelievable, so what? They are page turners and take me through them at a cracking pace.

I think the criticism of his books is a tad harsh. Fine, if he was attempting fine writing, just too harsh for what is a light thriller.

They are a terrible read, I may have to post a critique of his writing to show just how bad it is. I don't care that the stories are unbelievable, so is much of Shakespeare's work, all of Pratchett's work, in fact, most fiction writing.

Criticism of his books is much deserved. Light reading doesn't have to be and shouldn't be so poorly written. Just because I can't afford to put a Constable or Turner on my walls doesn't mean I should make do with monkey scribble or something that looks like it was done by a child.

Indeed - summed Mr Brown (the writer, not fuckwit politico) up very well.... saved me having to exercise my own grey matter.

If people want to read - and jump on the bandwagon of - the recent glut of conspiracy/historical secrets books then try Umberto Eco, or the original pseudo-historical texts by Baigent, Leigh and Lincoln (upon which Brown based his dumbed down Da Vinci rip-off).

Found this quite amusing, concerning the merits *ahem* of Dan Brown....

http://101reasonstostopwriting.com/2...not-dan-brown/

Originally Posted by Pompey_Jock

Found this quite amusing, concerning the merits *ahem* of Dan Brown....

http://101reasonstostopwriting.com/2...not-dan-brown/

I enjoyed that. :D

I watched the Da Vinci Code last night, between adverts, and thought it was a complete mess of a story and poorly acted. Hanks played Hanks brilliantly but was a poor Robert Langdon. I'll watch Angels & Demons when it reaches TV in about 3 years time.

Dan Brown and his 'works' are an insult to literature.

Even aside from the questionable subject material, the DVC is just very badly written. From totally inaccurate descriptions of historical sites and utterly dreadful stereotypes and inaccuracies such as when Sir Leigh Teabing breezes through UK customs without hindrance merely by virtue of being a knight of the realm!

"Membership has it's privileges" he cheerfully remarks. B0llocks!!

I've nothing against cheap mystery thrillers myself but no way does this deserve to be the cultural phenomenon it's become. Some of the reviews on Amazon are downright hilarious. People saying this book has changed their lives, changed their entire philosophical outlook, aaargh!!

Fair play to Dan Brown though, if writing shyte made me many hundreds of millions, i'd be laughing all the way to the bank as well.

Originally Posted by ottar

Originally Posted by Virgil

he apparently does'nt realize that the Swiss Guards are in a different country--Vatican City--and aren't allowed to roam all over the city of Rome which is basically part of the adjoining country of Italy. And it just goes on and on. Very disappointed.

He took that one stage further when he had an armed French police Inspector chasing his suspect across Blighty, with authority over the British police.
He strikes me as someone that doesn't understand Europe being a continent of many countries, and the difference between the Federal States the US has and independent nation states.

To be fair it's difficult to tell you all apart except by your hats, what you drink and whether your women are hairy or need dental work.

It turns out that Dan Brown didn't even do the research for his novels; his wife did. Some say that she deserves a 'co-writer' credit, but I'm not surprised that she didn't want to put her name to it.

I struggled through the Da Vinci Code until I realised that it was essentially a fictionalised version of 'Holy Blood, Holy Grail' which I'd already wasted time upon.

Originally Posted by Virgil

Originally Posted by ottar

Originally Posted by Virgil

he apparently does'nt realize that the Swiss Guards are in a different country--Vatican City--and aren't allowed to roam all over the city of Rome which is basically part of the adjoining country of Italy. And it just goes on and on. Very disappointed.

He took that one stage further when he had an armed French police Inspector chasing his suspect across Blighty, with authority over the British police.
He strikes me as someone that doesn't understand Europe being a continent of many countries, and the difference between the Federal States the US has and independent nation states.

To be fair it's difficult to tell you all apart except by your hats, what you drink and whether your women are hairy or need dental work.

He also protrays the Swiss Guard as an elite, para-military force; THEM in silly trousers.

I know every member of the Swiss Guard has completed his national service with the Swiss Army. And I believe most of them recieve CP training(at least since Papa John caught a nasty case of high-speed lead poisening ). But the SG are not in the Premier League...

Went to see it last night and quiet enjoyed it, regadless of the dodgey science, the swiss guard/vatican police in italy issue and the fact that I worked out the main plot twist early on. Never read the book but if you're off to the cinema and haven't seen Star Trek you will enjoy it.

Originally Posted by Werewolf

Originally Posted by Virgil

Originally Posted by ottar

Originally Posted by Virgil

he apparently does'nt realize that the Swiss Guards are in a different country--Vatican City--and aren't allowed to roam all over the city of Rome which is basically part of the adjoining country of Italy. And it just goes on and on. Very disappointed.

He took that one stage further when he had an armed French police Inspector chasing his suspect across Blighty, with authority over the British police.
He strikes me as someone that doesn't understand Europe being a continent of many countries, and the difference between the Federal States the US has and independent nation states.

To be fair it's difficult to tell you all apart except by your hats, what you drink and whether your women are hairy or need dental work.

He also protrays the Swiss Guard as an elite, para-military force; THEM in silly trousers.

I know every member of the Swiss Guard has completed his national service with the Swiss Army. And I believe most of them recieve CP training(at least since Papa John caught a nasty case of high-speed lead poisening ). But the SG are not in the Premier League...

I haven't found anything about their training except they're Swiss Army veterans, learn some hand-to-hand and personal security. Apparently the newest commander--according to a wiki link--isn't opposed to females joining. They're armed with Sigs like the Swiss Army.

I haven't read any of the books but I have seen the films, I dont know why so many people say The Da Vinci Code is boring, i was entertained the whole way through. I watched it on channel 5 a week or so ago, i enjoyed it I went to see Angels and Demons yesterday, but i prefer the first film, Angels and Demons is too hollywood, too broad with its story focus, so less enjoyable. The first film was more engaging you formed a connection with the characters doing their detective work, Angels and Demons doesn't take the time to get to know the characters and so you feel disconnected and isolated, just big explosions and a loose story.

I'll find out for myself next Saturday. Will go and watch it with the kids then.

And just like you said, insushin, such films only have to be entertaining. That's all they have to do for me.

Oh, and I even like Indiana Jones, and with all I know about egyptology and history all in all,
the stories are complete rubbish, but the films are absolutely brilliant, IMHO.

Originally Posted by ottar

But you are German, yes? In which case if you are reading them in English, his overly simplified use of English wouldn't make a huge difference to you, or if you are reading them in German it may just be that the translator could and did use language better than Brown.

You're right, I am German. That might be the reason why his use of English isn't that disturbing to me.
And I can't tell you about the German translation, cause I never read it.

(Btw, it's funny, but several plays by Shakespeare are still a 'must' read for the German GCSE,
so I'm afraid today it's more reading than performing, at least over here.)