Originally Posted by heard_it_all_before

Didn't the Ukraine think to pay for there gas by Direct-Debit...? :D

While I in no way take anything Russia says at face value, this stinks of someone skimming cash off and is now left with a shortfall they can't pay.

Originally Posted by Ord_Sgt

Originally Posted by Domovoy

Independent observers monitoring gas transit are now working in Russia and Slovakia, but are still not being allowed onto Ukrainian territory.

And your point is?

Yesterday Ukraine was trying to blackmail Gazprom by saying if gas to Ukraine will be cut off, Ukraine will consider transit agreement with Russia void and will start confiscating transit gas to Europe.

It looks like Ukraine didn't ditch this idea...

Originally Posted by Screw_The_Nut

I hardly think anyone can make over $1 billion just "dissapear"

You merely lack imagination, sir. :D

Originally Posted by Screw_The_Nut

I hardly think anyone can make over $1 billion just "dissapear"

Barclays managed to "disappear" £100 billion from Donald Moffat's account and he didn't even have it!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...overdrawn.html

Would seem quite easy for Rosukrenergo to "disappear" $1 billion.

Originally Posted by whitecity

Originally Posted by Screw_The_Nut

I hardly think anyone can make over $1 billion just "dissapear"

Barclays managed to "disappear" £100 billion from Donald Moffat's account and he didn't even have it!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...overdrawn.html

Would seem quite easy for Rosukrenergo to "disappear" $1 billion.

Yuschenko sent money by post. New Year, Christmas holidays... By March Gazprom should get the package.

Not being an International Analyst or anything, but a resurgent Russia with a militaristic meglomaniac at the helm and energy to burn and to bargain with is trying to vie with a financially-imploding West to regain Superpower status. Georgia wasn't really worth bothering with, but Ukraine is a large enough prize to focus on... i wonder.

Originally Posted by whitecity

Would seem quite easy for Rosukrenergo to "disappear" $1 billion.

Indeed...

"RosUkrEnergo is a Swiss-registered venture company that transports natural gas from Turkmenistan to East European countries. 50 percent of the company is owned by Gazprom, through its daughter Swiss-registered ARosgas Holding A.G. and another 50 percent by Raiffeisen Investment AG through its Swiss-registered Centragas Holding A.G., acting on behalf of a consortium of Ukrainian businessmen (who have refused to name themselves). The owners of Centragas are Dmitriy Firtash (90%) and Ivan Fursin (10%).

In late April 2006 Izvestia reported that the primary shareholders of RosUkrEnergo are Dmitri Firtash, owner of basketball club "BC Kiev", a former representative of Eural Trans Gas and owner of Ukrainian TV channels K-1 and K-2. The report stated that he owned 90% of CentraGas Holding, equalling 45% of RosUkrEnergo. The report stated that a further owner is another Ukrainian businessman Ivan Fursin, the primary shareholder of the film studio "Odessa" and an owner of Misto-bank. His stake was revealed to be 10% of CentraGas and therefore a 5% owner of RosUkrEnergo.

David Brown (Britain) -- Managing Director
Robert Shetler-Jones (Britain) -- Member of Supervisory Board



Yuschenko chose wisely through whom to "pay".

Originally Posted by Domovoy

Originally Posted by whitecity

Would seem quite easy for Rosukrenergo to "disappear" $1 billion.

Indeed...

"RosUkrEnergo is a Swiss-registered venture company that transports natural gas from Turkmenistan to East European countries. 50 percent of the company is owned by Gazprom, through its daughter Swiss-registered ARosgas Holding A.G. and another 50 percent by Raiffeisen Investment AG through its Swiss-registered Centragas Holding A.G., acting on behalf of a consortium of Ukrainian businessmen (who have refused to name themselves). The owners of Centragas are Dmitriy Firtash (90%) and Ivan Fursin (10%).

In late April 2006 Izvestia reported that the primary shareholders of RosUkrEnergo are Dmitri Firtash, owner of basketball club "BC Kiev", a former representative of Eural Trans Gas and owner of Ukrainian TV channels K-1 and K-2. The report stated that he owned 90% of CentraGas Holding, equalling 45% of RosUkrEnergo. The report stated that a further owner is another Ukrainian businessman Ivan Fursin, the primary shareholder of the film studio "Odessa" and an owner of Misto-bank. His stake was revealed to be 10% of CentraGas and therefore a 5% owner of RosUkrEnergo.

David Brown (Britain) -- Managing Director
Robert Shetler-Jones (Britain) -- Member of Supervisory Board



Yuschenko chose wisely through whom to "pay".

Exactly.

Just like with Serbia, Gazprom sets up a middleman - via an offshore subsidiary - in conjunction with 'local' interests to sell gas to a foreign state. Clever way to skim more profit from the very same sale.

Moreover, it allows further devious duplicity when making public (politically motivated) statements: "we haven't got the money in our account," says the man from Del Monte. The reality being, probably, that it is deliberately being held in an account controlled by Gazprom through a network of offshore subsidiaries.

whitecity

1. "Serbian middleman" was created by Serbians. As of this year Serbians will own 75% of it. If Serbians wanted to get rid of it they would've done it, but they didn't. You know that.

2. OK' let's say Gazprom are crooks and they lie about not receiving a payment. Why Ukrainian side of RosUkrEnergo are not confirming the payment?

Let's say and Gazprom, and Ukrainians are crooks. Why British side of RosUkrEnergo don't confirm the payment?

Let's say Ukraine did pay RosUkrEnergo $1bill. What about the rest of the debt? What about Ukraine refusing to sign the contract at $250?!!! What about Ukrain's threat that it will void the existing contract (until 2010) on gas transit to Europe and will start stealing European gas if Gazprom will not agree to sell gas to Ukraine at $100 and will turn off the gas untill Ukraine will pay off its debt?

3. Why do you make assumptions that it's Gazprom, and not Ukrainian side of RosUkrEnergo that hold the money (assuming the money were paid)?

Do you have anything to substantiate your assumptions?

A simple question "Who benefit from this situation?" will point you in a direction of "orange revolutionaries": Timoshenko will benefit from the impeachment of Yuschenko whom she is holding responsible for the gas debacle and general economic collapse; Yuschenko will benefit from an opportunity to impose direct presidential rule: a) he knows he has no hope of winning the next elections; b) he needs Crimea for NATO base; he started preparations for it long ago, but can't make any progress due to strong resistance from Crimean population; c) Ruthenians in Galitchina are getting seriously out of control; d) Republic-Donbass is gaining popularity. Ukraine is falling to pieces and he is losing controll.

But it seems the idea of a young democracy pushed around by an unhinged Bear is too appealing for you to put it aside.

Originally Posted by Domovoy

1. "Serbian middleman" was created by Serbians. As of this year Serbians will own 75% of it. If Serbians wanted to get rid of it they would've done it, but they didn't. You know that.

No I don't know that at all.

"Serbian middleman" was created in 1996 for one purpose: to build gas pipelines because Serbia was bankrupt and was desperate for foreign investment. That company was then turned into the gas supply "middleman" (in 2006) AFTER Gazprom had taken control and at GAZPROM's insistence.

Serbia owns 24% of the "Serbian middleman" and the only evidence you have produced to suggest that is going to change is a report that Gazprom has given permission for Serbia to raise that to 49%. No mention of 75% and, moreover, it contradicts Serbian government policy.

Originally Posted by Domovoy

2. OK' let's say Gazprom are crooks and they lie about not receiving a payment. Why Ukrainian side of RosUkrEnergo are not confirming the payment?

You tell me.

Originally Posted by Domovoy

Let's say and Gazprom, and Ukrainians are crooks. Why British side of RosUkrEnergo don't confirm the payment?

You tell me. But what is the "British side" other than well paid placemen?

Originally Posted by Domovoy

Let's say Ukraine did pay RosUkrEnergo $1bill. What about the rest of the debt? What about Ukraine refusing to sign the contract at $250?!!! What about Ukrain's threat that it will void the existing contract (until 2010) on gas transit to Europe and will start stealing European gas if Gazprom will not agree to sell gas to Ukraine at $100 and will turn off the gas untill Ukraine will pay off its debt?

What about it?

Originally Posted by Domovoy

3. Why do you make assumptions that it's Gazprom, and not Ukrainian side of RosUkrEnergo that hold the money (assuming the money were paid)?

Do you have anything to substantiate your assumptions?

Eh???

Originally Posted by Domovoy

A simple question "Who benefit from this situation?"

Gazprom. Next.

You keep telling us that this is perfectly normal 'business' Gazprom turning off the taps due to lack of payment and not some Russian political powerplay. But, to support your opinion, you believe it all to be some Ukrainian political powerplay. :(

Originally Posted by Domovoy

But it seems the idea of a young democracy pushed around by an unhinged Bear is too appealing for you to put it aside.

Remove the blinkers Domovoi, you're NOT debating with a tunnel vision neocon.