Thread: MoD refuses to hand over video to Coroner

Originally Posted by PassingBells

Given that it is a cockpit video and a US aircraft, it's probably a US tape.

If the US have released it to the MOD, they may well have imposed conditions on it's use and/or dissemination. Pure supposition, but not unreasonable.

Sounds like the coroner thinks he is God's gift though.

You'd be surprised at the authority of the Coroner.

Originally Posted by hackle

Originally Posted by Sven

Originally Posted by TheBigUn

It beggars belief. When will the MoD ever, ever learn? There has to be someone with the brains and moral courage to realise that events like this do not do them any favours. It stinks of whitewash and cover up already.

Wake up Whitehall ffs!

In the long term, what will it acheive to air the video in court. Is it the only proof that these two pilots were the ones who fired on the convoy? Is it the only evidence that will make it incontravertable?

By the way, Whitehall is not saying that the Coroner cannot have the video, only that it will take a week to find it

No, according to reports the Coroner has already seen the video. The issue is whether it can be shown as part of the inquest.

The cockpit video may show what the pilots would have seen when they made the decision to open fire. For all I know, it may be apparent from the video that the Union flags on the vehicles, soldiers waving to show they were friendly, etc, were not readily apparent from the aircraft.

With respect, I am honestly astonished that any members of this website should be arguing so strenuously against evidence being admitted in such an inquest. Or even arguing that no inquests should be held!? Most of us fully understand that blue-on-blues do happen.

With respect, having reviewed my posts I don't think that I have argued anywhere that the video shouldn't be shown, only that it isn't the only evidence of a blue on blue.

As to inquests of soldiers dying in war, I am not convinced of the necessity of it or what they hope to acheive. The only result of a person inexperienced in military operations making judgment on those who died in them can only result in verdicts like that of Terry Lloyd, where the coroner involved seemingly knew nothing of the Geneva Conventions

Am I alone (and possibly very, very wrong) in thinking that such inquiries SHOULD be held behind closed doors, at least while the conflict is ongoing?

Most males in my family were wiped out in the 2 world wars, and it seems that to a man they died quick, clean and suitably heroic deaths. This made their mothers/sisters/daughters very proud, and without a doubt reduced their suffering. Also without a doubt, it's codswallop. Is it really helping those close to LCpl Hull to hear how he died wounded and trapped in his burning vehicle? And because of a cock up?

Of course each such incident is a lesson, and must be investigated to minimise chances of it happening again. But this is a military concern, and the lessons are of importance only to the military.

Can the person responsible at MoD be banged up for contempt?

So a man's life is worth less than a little black box costing a few grand. Planes have em. Why don't AFVs? Can't grunts be trusted with the crypto?

Mind you, it didn't stop the Patriot shooting down the Tornado. Note that the gallant soldier who rescued his comrades received the George Cross rather than an operational award for courage shown in a hostile action. All this to try and avoid bad PR for the Yanks. I bet the A-10 pilot and Patriot operators have gongs aplenty, misdeeds apart.

Originally Posted by Sven

Originally Posted by TheBigUn

It beggars belief. When will the MoD ever, ever learn? There has to be someone with the brains and moral courage to realise that events like this do not do them any favours. It stinks of whitewash and cover up already.

Wake up Whitehall ffs!

In the long term, what will it acheive to air the video in court. Is it the only proof that these two pilots were the ones who fired on the convoy? Is it the only evidence that will make it incontravertable?

By the way, Whitehall is not saying that the Coroner cannot have the video, only that it will take a week to find it

Sven as many before me have stated you are the most annoying tw*t know to arrrsers, Please note the coroner has the video but is not being allowed to show it or use it in this case. I belive you post on this site just to antagonise and to throw people off the thread. The video was posted to the coroner by whom we do not know. Now F**k Off. Rant over I am calm

Originally Posted by wheel

Originally Posted by Sven

Originally Posted by TheBigUn

It beggars belief. When will the MoD ever, ever learn? There has to be someone with the brains and moral courage to realise that events like this do not do them any favours. It stinks of whitewash and cover up already.

Wake up Whitehall ffs!

In the long term, what will it acheive to air the video in court. Is it the only proof that these two pilots were the ones who fired on the convoy? Is it the only evidence that will make it incontravertable?

By the way, Whitehall is not saying that the Coroner cannot have the video, only that it will take a week to find it

Sven as many before me have stated you are the most annoying tw*t know to arrrsers, Please note the coroner has the video but is not being allowed to show it or use it in this case. I belive you post on this site just to antagonise and to throw people off the thread. The video was posted to the coroner by whom we do not know. Now F**k Off. Rant over I am calm

Fucck off Yourself

I got this from the Beeb

Note that it says here

Mr Walker has demanded the MoD make the tape available by Friday morning.

And so I say again - fucck off, Tw@t

BP, sadly without publicity nothing changes. If the MoD could close the doors, not embarrass its American allies it most probably would do so. if troops die avoidably then someone should take responsibility for that. The Great Wars were not wars of choice. This one is. And troops have been sent into Afg without sufficient equipment or support. If you want troop deaths to become a passing statistic go right ahead. I have lost mates in recent times and at the very least I want my still serving colleagues to be better protected. I cannot agree with your conclusions.

Let's take this case Nige. Has it already become common knowledge that L/Cpl Hull was killed by American pilots - of course it has. Is it already common knowledge that british vehicles do not have the Americna IFF - again, yes.

What, in this case, is there to cover up and how can some civvie who has never seen the inside of an AFV discover some smoking gun when He doesn't know the first thing about the military

Sven, this civvy pointed out inadequacies in the investigation and conclusion into Sgt Roberts' death. I do not know the first thing about this case but I do know that none of the relatives are offered legal assistance in these inquests. Why is the MoD spending millions of pounds on the finest legal brains around? Sorry mate I lost faith in the MoD years ago. I have been chatting to a coroner today, they are fiercely independent. You discredit them to suggest they are naive civvies.

Nigeglib - Eh? We could have chosen to ignore Belgium/Poland and stayed out of both great wars. Like we could've chosen to ignore Kuwait and stay out of this one.

I do worry about behind closed doors inquiries trying to hush up such incidents for political/propaganda reasons, but I did say behind closed door rather than within the MOD. Panels should be made up of servicemen and coroners, not civil servants. But the family and therefore the press don't need the gruesome details.

What needs changing in the MOD is priorities. Look at the fuss over some mothballed destroyers, how many sailors have died for want of the right kit this last 20 years? The teeth arms are doing the suffering, and as an added smack in the face get to see the other arms buying up kit that the teeth arms don't need. From the political angle, British jobs seem more a consideration than British lives which is a disgrace. So I don't want troop deaths to become a "passing statistic", either?

Originally Posted by Sven

So the instances of blue on blue should be criminalised? I am not condoning it but wherever there is conflict there will be instances of blue on blue. Even within the army

Sven, I don't think that has been suggested at all. What has been said here - and I agree - is that a Coroner should have all the evidence and pertinent information placed before him. It is entirely wrong that MoD should withhold any information at all - wrong but not surprising.

This is about potential embarrassment to HMG - and MoD in particular. Well there are things which are much more important than that...

It's my view that if MoD persists the relatives of the deceased would be in a position to take legal steps to ensure that evidence is surrendered. It is also within the power of the Coroner to instruct MoD to deliver up the tapes.

BP what has Kuwait got to do with the invasion of Iraq? Oh and Hitler was planning to invade England. Next question?

Gentlemen

I do not want to detract from the main topic here but would you please stop referring to Matty Hull as a LCpl. He was not. He was a Household Cavalry, Blue & Royal and a Lance Corporal of Horse (LCoH), a rank of which he like all HCav soldiers are proud of. I know that the media got it wrong but we do not need to make the same mistake.

Originally Posted by nigegilb

BP WTF has Kuwait got to do with the invasion of Iraq? Oh and Hitler was planning to invade England. Next question?

No, he wasn't. That's why he offered us peace terms in 1940.

And the whole Iraq thing today stems from the whole Iraq thing in 90/91.

Originally Posted by nigegilb

Sven, this civvy pointed out inadequacies in the investigation and conclusion into Sgt Roberts' death. I do not know the first thing about this case but I do know that none of the relatives are offered legal assistance in these inquests. Why is the MoD spending millions of pounds on the finest legal brains around? Sorry mate I lost faith in the MoD years ago. I have been chatting to a coroner today, they are fiercely independent. You discredit them to suggest they are naive civvies.

Naive no, but totally inexperienced with regard to the military and its operations.

And if the Lloyd case has anything to go by, ignorant of international law