Thread: Forces accomdation - General speaks out.

David Cameron wants to tender all re-development of forces accomodation to PFI's. Good in the short term but surely the MOD will end up paying over the odds for the next 50 years to relinquish what little governance they have over it (cf hospitals).

It used to be more expensive before things were privately contracted out (and services took a nose dive and efficiency evaporated), but that's because good service costs more. It's not rocket science - poor investment leads to a poor state of affairs, and as a result living standards have ended up in the same place as equipment. In the toilet.

I just hope young potential recruits don't take the horror story images and recent outcrys from those in charge too much to heart and abandon plans to join. If the Governement does nothing about what is being highlighted it will make such characters as the Adj Gen appear impotent, and undermine faith in those in charge.

Let’s all use the same method as the politicians – buy a place close to your place of work and get the government to pay for it.

I agree that a lot of singlies blocks are in rag. I am lucky enough to live in a Z type at my unit. Although there are still not enough for everyone in my regiment, the old blocks are all getting re-furbished. I get the feeling that the MOD may be putting slightly more effort into BFG accomodation than in the UK. Anyone else noticed this?

Originally Posted by milsum

David Cameron wants to tender all re-development of forces accomodation to PFI's. Good in the short term but surely the MOD will end up paying over the odds for the next 50 years to relinquish what little governance they have over it (cf hospitals).

It used to be more expensive before things were privately contracted out (and services took a nose dive and efficiency evaporated), but that's because good service costs more. It's not rocket science - poor investment leads to a poor state of affairs, and as a result living standards have ended up in the same place as equipment. In the toilet.

I just hope young potential recruits don't take the horror story images and recent outcrys from those in charge too much to heart and abandon plans to join. If the Governement does nothing about what is being highlighted it will make such characters as the Adj Gen appear impotent, and undermine faith in those in charge.

Milsum,

PFI contracts do cost more than an equivalent Public Sector Comparator. Build costs will roughly be equal, but life cycle costs will vary significantly, and over the life of a contract the PFI contract will cost between 17 - 20% more than if the MOD owned, managed and serviced the facility. In addition the contractor, where damage occurs, is likely to replace rather than repair, all adding to the cost.

The upside, however, is that as long as the contract is managed properly, and units monitor and report poor service, the barracks/facility will be maintained to a high standard over the life of the contract. Even better is that the funding to enable this cannot be reduced as the MOD is under contract that includes sig penalty clauses for pull out/reduction of service.

So What:

We must either have a complete PFI estate or a complete MOD estate. Why - because whilst we are maintaining a dual estate, the MOD estate will always take the hit if funding is tight, and there will exist a growing and yawning gap between MOD and PFI managed facilities.

What would I opt for? PFI anytime. Why? - for the reasons stated above and to ensure that the EP is funded not by making periodic raids on the estates budget, but by proper resourcing in it's own right.

Live in hope, die in despair.

PAW

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RAF Brize Norton

Maybe Channel 4 could do a "Wife Swap" type program, with Bliar living in my MQ and me living at Chequers for a week.
He could do my job and I'll be PM.
He can also explain to my wife why I'm never home; under paid; ficked over by JPA, Tax Credits, Inland Revenue etc. And I could batter Cherie Blair to a bloody pulp with a shovel, then give us all a budget increase and sack some snivel servants.

I think it would be good veiwing.

Where are the officers responsible for letting their boys into these places? Don't any of the OC's or CO's have the moral courage to refuse to let their soldiers into these blocks? Or if they have NO other choice, as all the tents are packed in Donnington or wherever, are they completely incapable of cleaning the place up (I accept all the points made above about damp and tiles falling off walls etc., but FFS SOMEWHERE on the camp there's hot water and soap).

Heard a Crabair wife on the radio this morning comparing the Army to whingeing teachers. FM, have we fallen that low??

Radio 2 are having a talk about it on the Jeremy vine bit today 12.00-14.00. They want people to ring, in if any one wants to

Email: vine@bbc.co.uk
Pre broadcast number 0800 022 022
Call: 0500 288 291
Text: 88291

Originally Posted by xmal

Let's say that the accommodation was for nurses rather than squaddies. Would the government have acted? I think so.

No they wouldn't My wife used to live in nurses accom she paid £80 a month for a room you couldnt swing a cat in. No showers until just before she moved out etc just the old baths and sinks the block was about the same age if not older than most of the blocks having issues at the moment. If anything student nurses/nurses are lucky to have acomm these days my wifes mates got told to leave within a matter of weeks so their appartment could b sold off to private developers and any acomm theses days are oppcupied by foriegn doctors.....inc consultants the very people who can afford to live out.

I've lived in some right sh1tter blocks in my time Buller Bks being the worst. Whilst in London our blocks were condemned but by adding double glazing to them extended the life of them . Posted back there and the blocks were still in use heating inadiqute and not enough portable heaters in the QM's to go around.
As for the blocks being in rag order ever thought it might not be the singies fault? we had civi cleaners do ours and it was a crap job they carried out spent more time gassing and fagging it then leaving the fag buts on the floor than doing the job. Lucky for us we were told just to tidy the rooms only.
The pic of the bath was pretty bad however someone has pointed out that it maybe OOB as someone considered that it's in a block that has been condemned/unsafe due to asbestos etc and that due to this block being unfit for use that squaddies are being squeezed in like sardines


The tories can shut up harping about it as well this probelm was present when they have been in Government

elovabloke wrote: Let’s all use the same method as the politicians – buy a place close to your place of work and get the government to pay for it.

To take this a step further, why not have soldiers' accommodation provided free of charge as is the case with Cabinet Members as they must be close to their place of work. Our Barrack blocks are there to house soldiers and it is criminal in many cases that they are charged for the privilege.

Maybe an MP could even sponsor a soldier's barrack charges as I believe they don't even have to show receipts for expenses below 250 quid!

I would like to assure the ex-service posts on this thread that accommodation inspections do still take place on a regular basis which serve Commanders well in:

Educating those who haven't had the responsibility of cleaning and maintaining a living space (unsupervised as they were during training).

Educating hoarders of rubbish who present a fire hazard to themselves and those around them.

Getting to know more about their soldiers by how they live, their families (gleaned from photos around the bed space leading to questions) and their hobbies and interests.

We appreciate that soldiers have a right to privacy and, to some degree, should be left to live in the accommodation that they pay for as they see fit however, if the way they want to live conflicts with health and safety for themselves and their comrades then inspections are the only way of highlighting and dealing with this.

My point - provide the accommodation free (as has been alluded to by an earlier thread) and inspect it regularly.

gotw

To improve their lot, perhaps the forces personnel could swop accomodation with some of the people who contribute least to our society?

From Nbair http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thre...20070104103157

Twigg is an odious little twerp.

The 700M they repeatedly trot out as a headline statistic is no doubt tied into Projects Connaught/Allenby/Hyperion and MoDEL. There will be no money, yet alone new money for the maintenance or upgrade of barracks that our not due to be delivered type Z accommodation in the next 5 years yet alone those beyond it. I live on a barracks where strategic infrastructure planning (or more honestly the lack of it and balls in the civil servants) meant a 5 year delay in ANY infrastructure investment.

We are now subject to the Regional Prime Contractor and hence whereas before we had a say on the acceptance criteria for work carried out we no longer can hold contractors to account for their shoddy work or indeed their exhorbitant charges, instead we have another layer of beaurucracy between the Unit (customer) and the contractor who are taking their slice of profit and overhead before any service is delivered. This is all in the name of larger contracts that are supposed to deliver economies of scale to the Treasury and MoD. The same is what is affecting the standard of block maintenance.

I inspect my folks blocks regularly mainly to focus on the standard of the accommodation. It is not a bull inspection as per days of old but cleanliness is still expected. The contractor is paid to provide a certain number of hours cleaning to a schedule and I ensure my Block NCOs hold them to account to the schedule as well as making sure the soldiers spruce the place for my walkarounds.

If we say that it is down purely to the soldiers to maintain the blocks the contractors will standback and let us get on with it whilst still creaming in their profits and indeed will love us for it as they will cut their manpower overhead whilst still being paid for provision of that service. The same and worse applies to new builds where if soldiers clean it and damage it (using wrong materials and taking off the paper thin layer of paint) we will invalidate the warranty and the contractor will then either walk away again with a nice fat profit for doing chuff all or charge a gross excess to make good the damage.

Put the money back to the Bde and indeed QM to manage and meet the point of need and stop paying ever greater amounts of management overhead for people to track meaningles targets of how much of that 700M has been spent at the front end!

I left after 23 years in 2001 and I would like to believe the accommodation has improved since.
However, during my last four or five unaccompanied years as a fat badge, I found the mess accommodation where ever they sent me to be appalling.
For my last two years at Donnington, I spent driving to work every morning rather than suffer some of the shittiest mess accommodation and service I had seen in 20 + years. The journey from Donnington to Manchester took me two hours and likewise the return journey had me getting home at 2000hrs if I was lucky. .......and no, I never even let my wife or family grace the steps of that god awful mess.

Having lived in Ebrington Bks in Londonderry as a singly, I can adjudicate poor standards of accommodation with the best of them. On rainy days the drainage would overload, forcing sewage to seep out into the corridors and into our rooms. Upon telling the QM's their answer was "Stop whinging, you're not paying for it are you? I am fortunate at present to live in a half decent quarter (although my cellar is so mouldy the plaster keeps crumbling off the walls, something I attribute to a large amounts of cold illnesses since I moved in) but I know I'm one of the fortunates out there.

A couple of clever sh*ts on this site (probably married senior ranks who have conveniently forgotten the squalor in which they once lived) are suggesting that the the state of the accommodation is almost entirely avoidable and/or easy rectified by a bit of elbow grease. Sorry, no chance.

Most of the buildings are damp and decayed. Toilets, baths and showers are used to excess while others lay unserviceable for many months. What help is a bit of bleach in a constantly used lavvy when someone's going to lay a cable in it thirty seconds later? The same goes for showers, which undoubtedly get damaged beyond repair after constant overuse for years on end.

A bath tub, toilet or basin has a finite lifespan, which more often than not is exceeded in military establishments. If you don't eventually replace them, the enamel gets worn down and staining occurs. Regular cleaning can help prolong it's life, but what about the boys suffering now as a result of past inefficiencies?

Another point to note is that heating and ventilation is seldom up to scratch, and as such is a main contributor to the problem. Cleaning the block for months on end with cold water and no cleaning equipment will have an effect, have no doubt about it. You could argue that the lads can use their initiative, buy their own cleaning materials and boil their own water, but the fact remains - why should they?

Originally Posted by Moosaca

We have so many 'trained' artisans in the forces who aren't allowed to practice their trade or are misemployed yet still paid for the qual. Many want to carry out their trade, why not let them crack on? If it's because they haven't got the Governmentaly Recognised qualifications - why have them in the forces? Plumbers, Sparkies, Chippies etc, they could probably sort out a row of semi detatched houses in half the time it takes the local contractors or MOD Recognised, over priced, lazy, underskilled planks that we all know and love.

A few years ago ( 2001/2) I worked in the former DAQ part of LAND, involved with a a small scale quick-win effort dubbed Project Reader.

Went to Aldershot garrison to look at what was probably the worst accomm in the British Army - Montgomery Lines ( which I understand is now empty though not yet demolished). It was built in the early 1960's by a guy called Poulsen ( yes, the one later jailed) with an anticipated life of 20 years. When the Paras moved out in late 1990's it was kept occupied.

Before they moved to St Athan the last resident unit to my knowledge was the Welsh Guards.

One of the cookhouses (Rhine Bks?) was out of use because the flat roof needed refelting. Soldiers were having to be marched across a busy road to another barracks for messing. Some couldn't be arrsed and skipped meals or spent their own money on takeouts. The then resident Bn was the last hang-out of Airborne, 9 Para Sqn RE.

Being fresh-faced and excusably ignorant I asked exactly the same question - what's to stop you carrying out the work yourselves?

I was told.....Unions.....Health & Safety......money.....er.....

The PROM also told me that it was costing them £2K to get a SINGLE double glazed window replaced.

If you talk to the people who have been in charge of Army accom (and this is NOT just an Army problem but conspicuously the worst of the the 3 Services) they will tell you about what is termed

' The historic bow-wave of underfunding '

Back in the day, when BUDGETS were disaggregated, the Garrison local property maintenance budgets were routinely raided to pay for other things which local commanders - that is SOLDIERS, not "MoD bean-counters" note - saw as the shark nearest the boat. Ask someone about the conference centre at Upavon !

So

> The gutters and paintwork didn't get done every other year, as had been the practice.

> The 'Man with the Van' who would come out and fix a broken door or a light fitting or a window got either retired or put on the 'Black economy'

> The grass got cut twice a year instead of once a month.

> The cry was ' let our soldiers get on with soldiering' - no more Work Parties, no more grounds maintenance being done by Defaulters.


Now, as any PROM or 'Site representative' will grudgingly tell you, you can get away with minimal maintenance for a couple of years. But then, the gutters overgrown start leaking water into the fabric, the paintwork not renewed leads to other problems, the grass uncut leads to vermin infestation in buildings and ( eventually ) becomes a fire hazard.

And, of course, contracting out around 200 Minor Works Contracts into four Regional Prime Contracts has had a big impact on how things are done.

This is what my ex boss the former Director Army Estates had to say on Boxing Day ( before Gen Freddy piped up)

Barracks scandal


Sir, The Government is indeed asking too much of its soldiers (report, Dec 22). Not only are they overcommitted but they are also disgracefully undercared for in old, leaky and inadequate barracks.
Although well known in the Ministry of Defence, the scale and duration of this problem is scandalous. Years of underinvestment and mismanagement have left an appalling legacy that will take a great deal of money and many years to resolve. The Government’s commitment to the Army would be significantly enhanced by some serious resolve to increase spending on barracks maintenance and improvement. These budgets need ring-fencing by the Treasury from the annual plunder of albeit important but shorter-term demands in the MoD.


TOM FOULKES, BRIG (RET'S)
Director of Army Estate
1998-2002

----------------------------------

It may be that people will say 'Why didn't he speak up when he was in office ? ' Well, he did.....frequently.....long and loud.....to anyone who would listen.......but nobody wanted to hear it.


A new barracks such as the build on the old Mons College site in Aldershot costs £200M plus.

One of the main reasons (I'm told ) that we still have 22,000 Service personnel in Germany - costing the UK HOW MUCH? and contributing HOW MUCH to the German economy ? - is because we have nowhere to put them if they came back to UK.

I don't think Grasping Gordon is about to step up with either Capital or Resource funding for military infrastructure anytime soon.......breath holding ? Check, check, check.


Le Chevre