The long term posting is a boon to the Jncos who are getting married as it doesprovide a future for their wives and kids but what happens when they get sent to the depot (or whatever they call it now!),then the best hope is for the whole regt not just Bn to be within commuting distance which would mean coming back from Germany sometime!
I have noticed with mates who stayed on that they tended to buy a place at home or near a regtl posting, dump wife and sprogs there and hope for some regular rotation through or rent the place out. SNCOs buying are generally leaving it too late unless of course they have a place to sell already.
Either way sod being a first time buyer and when the next rash of MQ disposals come up tie them to a retention contract and not just anyone with 18 yrs in!

Originally Posted by ugly

The long term posting is a boon to the Jncos who are getting married as it does provide a future for their wives and kids but what happens when they get sent to the depot (or whatever they call it now!),then the best hope is for the whole regt not just Bn to be within commuting distance which would mean coming back from Germany sometime!
I have noticed with mates who stayed on that they tended to buy a place at home or near a regtl posting, dump wife and sprogs there and hope for some regular rotation through or rent the place out. SNCOs buying are generally leaving it too late unless of course they have a place to sell already.
Either way sod being a first time buyer and when the next rash of MQ disposals come up tie them to a retention contract and not just anyone with 18 yrs in!

The joy of the Para system seemed to be that they were a Regiment of 3 Bns (not 3 independent Bns, calling themselves a Regt). For a long time, with 2 Bns of the 3 (plus Depot Para) in the 'Shot, a career soldier knew he'd spend 66% or more of his career based there, and - if he had reasons for not going 'out of role', there were fair prospects of an inter-Bn posting. Otherwise, he could do the odd out-of-roll tour as married unaccompanied.

I'll admit, the geographic distribution of Bks in the UK, and in Germany makes it difficult to apply the para model across the board - but it is most definitely worth very close study.

That is, if the Army is serious about retention and recruitment. It just means having to abandon some myths, assumptions and prejudices about "what the troops really want".

Originally Posted by "Stonker It just seems to me that - instead of bitching about p1ss-poor MQs - military folk should be arguing (now the daze of Empire are over) for a way of life that puts them on a footing close to that of civvies: own house, and 2 career incomes to the household.

Instead of wasting money on sh1t MQs with matching maintenance/cleaning/allocation control staff, spend the money on:
Pay? Living-in accom?I just don't think we ought to accept the notion that soldiers [b

have [/b]to be housed by the MoD - it will always be a 2nd or 3rd-rate way of doing things.

Stonker take your point, but part of the attraction of the Army was the ability to occupy decent accomodation, both SLA and SFA. Now our Accn is generally in a poor state (and in some cases absolutely intolerable).

Proper and affordable accommodation is part of our Terms and Conditions of Service - and alway has been; but I think you confuse the argument by suggesting that making soldiers live outside barracks is a viable option, unless of course the service can afford to increase pay to cover the rental charges that will inevitably be required.

Finally in my view what is reqired is a grass roots review of accommodation and sufficient funding to put it right, I simply do accept the amounts quoted by the Twigg person.

Originally Posted by Outstanding

Originally Posted by "Stonker It just seems to me that - instead of bitching about p1ss-poor MQs - military folk should be arguing (now the daze of Empire are over) for a way of life that puts them on a footing close to that of civvies: own house, and 2 career incomes to the household.

Instead of wasting money on sh1t MQs with matching maintenance/cleaning/allocation control staff, spend the money on:
Pay? Living-in accom?I just don't think we ought to accept the notion that soldiers [b

have [/b]to be housed by the MoD - it will always be a 2nd or 3rd-rate way of doing things.

Stonker take your point, but part of the attraction of the Army was the ability to occupy decent accomodation, both SLA and SFA. Now our Accn is generally in a poor state (and in some cases absolutely intolerable).

Proper and affordable accommodation is part of our Terms and Conditions of Service - and alway has been; but I think you confuse the argument by suggesting that making soldiers live outside barracks is a viable option, unless of course the service can afford to increase pay to cover the rental charges that will inevitably be required.

Finally in my view what is reqired is a grass roots review of accommodation and sufficient funding to put it right, I simply do accept the amounts quoted by the Twigg person.

I wasn't suggesting that at all.

Single soldiers living-out was, in fact, foisted on the Paras in Collie (HQ LAND having repeatedly refused to believe the QMs repeated counts of bed-spaces in their former Cav Bks, then had to find the dosh to fund digs for single soldiers, while the in-bks accn was expanded). The livers-out enjoyed it up to a point, but it isolated newcomers and had all sorts of other down-sides.

Pads accn and singlies accn (along with their aspirations) are separate and distinct - but not necessarily clearly understood or articulated by the CoC.

(edited for clarity)

BBC 'Listen Again' link to the item on Thursday's Today programme:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/li...y_20070104.ram

Includes excerpt from Gen Viggers' TV interview; excellent interview with anonymous service wife at Brize Norton; and interview with myself, speaking as Chairman of the new British Armed Forces Federation.

You need RealPlayer to listen on that link. If required we can email an mp3 version - you'll have to join BAFF first ;)

Thanks for all the great support today - especially to today's membership applicants!

Douglas Young

Originally Posted by Stonker

I hope people posting their horror stories on here are replicatiing them on the BBC web page as well.(sorry I haven't a link to post - not yet anyway)
quote]

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thre...602&#paginator

I dunno if the BBC notify you 'you're comment posted/not posted'.

I heard on the R4 evening news that this story has generated the single biggest response ever (or, maybe in the last year). Either way - it's a busy board: for good or ill, it's stirring people up.

131 pages with 2031 comments so far!

Clueless civvies seem to have been put in their place by a Purple majority.

A bit disappointing that even on the BBC comment page there is already a divide between all 3 arms, pads and singlies!

Originally Posted by hackle

BBC 'Listen Again' link to the item on Thursday's Today programme:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/li...y_20070104.ram

Includes excerpt from Gen Viggers' TV interview; excellent interview with anonymous service wife at Brize Norton; and interview with myself, speaking as Chairman of the new British Armed Forces Federation.

You need RealPlayer to listen on that link. If required we can email an mp3 version - you'll have to join BAFF first ;)

Thanks for all the great support today - especially to today's membership applicants!

Douglas Young

hackle,
Well done to you and BAFF for making this the lead news story over the past two days. I just hope now that the MoD have admitted that 49% of their estate is substandard (BBC 10 O'clock news last night) that something gets done.

Originally Posted by Priam

Originally Posted by Stonker

I hope people posting their horror stories on here are replicatiing them on the BBC web page as well.(sorry I haven't a link to post - not yet anyway)
quote]

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thre...602&#paginator

I dunno if the BBC notify you 'you're comment posted/not posted'.

I heard on the R4 evening news that this story has generated the single biggest response ever (or, maybe in the last year). Either way - it's a busy board: for good or ill, it's stirring people up.

131 pages with 2031 comments so far!

Clueless civvies seem to have been put in their place by a Purple majority.

A bit disappointing that even on the BBC comment page there is already a divide between all 3 arms, pads and singlies!

That should not be a surprise: least of all the different apsirations/expectations of young singlies and pads with kids.

As to dealing with the maintenance of single soldiers accom - am I out of date, or is that still a single-service matter? If it remains a single-service matter, then:

a. Serving Snr Offirs should be catching their share of the flak for allowing the situation to decline as it so clearly has.
b. It ought to be easier to get a grip of it.

Originally Posted by Winstanley

Come on chaps, let's cut to the chase! Yes, we all know that there are mongy, mangy soldiers out there who would live in s*** even if offered a place in paradise. What do you expect when the Army insists on recruiting from sink estates in deprived areas (to keep wages down?).

Winstanley,

Which planet are you from?

PAW

PS Write note to yourself: 'Must stop reading the Guardian and Socialist Worker'.

The Times has a 2 page spread on accommodation horror stories, the efforts of AFF and the Annington sell-off:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...532197,00.html

Growing army of soldiers' wives go to war over their squalid homes
Jane Wheatley

Burst boilers, faulty electrics and leaky roofs - our correspondent looks through the keyhole at service quarters that embarrass the nation


Caroline Perham, a soldier’s wife, followed the removal van as it turned into a crescent of houses towards the family’s new home, their seventh in 11 years. The van stopped outside No 14, a smart new house with sloping roof, solar panels and French doors opening to a terrace. Her heart lifted. Army housing is a lottery — you don’t know what to expect. Compared with some of their previous homes, this one looked gorgeous.
Once inside, she discovered that the bathroom had no running water, the radiator leaked and the toilet didn’t flush. There was water on the floor of the downstairs lavatory and, when the kettle and toaster were plugged in, the fuses blew. There was only one control dial on the gas cooker, which had to be moved to operate each burner. It was not the right dial. There were no numbers on it, and it was frighteningly easy to leave the gas on.



“The estate warden came round and I’m stood there with my three-year-old saying, ‘You can’t leave me like this’.� He told her to call Modern Housing Solutions, the MoD organisation responsible for maintenance and repairs.

Mrs Perham, who has asked that we do not use her real name, said that seven gas engineers arrived in four months. “Each one leaves saying, ‘You need new dials’, but never comes back. I spent the first six months in that house on the phone trying to get things repaired.�

Her story is typical, according to Rosie Brown, a commander’s wife and housing specialist with the Army Families Federation (www.army.mod.uk/aff). Mrs Brown applied for the post after struggling to get repairs done on her own married quarters. “I thought, if it’s like this for me, a senior officer’s wife with 22 years’ experience, what must it be like for some young soldier’s wife?� she said.

She soon found out. In the first week she listened to a litany of woes from women at the end of their tether, many of them in tears, their husbands away in Iraq or Afghanistan. There were tales of dirty, damp houses with no heating, burst boilers, gas leaks and faulty electrics. One wife was admitted to hospital after suffering an electric shock; another, whose husband was serving in Bosnia for six months, complained of cracks in the walls so wide that she could feel the breeze: “It feels as if my house is splitting in half,� she said.

One soldier told Mrs Brown that after 22 years of service he had despaired of “this quartering debacle� and was transferring to the Australian Army. An officer’s wife wrote: “I have made a commitment to live with and follow my husband around the world and we rely on army housing to be in a respectable state. I am not sure how much longer I want him to be part of an organisation that places so little value on our standard of living.�

That, says Mrs Brown, goes to the heart of the matter: home is often the only stable thing in an army family’s life. Waiting six months for repairs in a two-year posting is unacceptable.

Within two months of starting, Mrs Brown was addressing startled chiefs of staff at the Ministry of Defence. The military covenant, she reminded them crisply, stated that soldiers called upon to make personal sacrifices in the service of the nation could in return expect that they and their families would be valued and respected. That covenant was being broken daily.

Mrs Brown says that for months there has been no money for any new work. “A boiler that needs replacing is patched over and over again, spare parts and call-out charges costing five times the price of a new one.�

Shortage of funding for an army that has been operational for ten years — in Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan — has meant a choice between body armour and new ovens, she says. “But war is no excuse: on the contrary, it is all the more reason for families to be looked after properly. A soldier facing dangers abroad does not want to be worrying about the boiler blowing up at home.�

When Mrs Perham’s husband phoned her on her mobile phone at 10 o’clock one night from Bosnia, she didn’t tell him that she was sitting in her car outside the house with their six-month-old baby because she had smelt gas after a visit from a plumber and had been ordered to leave. “I pretended that I was safely at home with the baby tucked up in bed,� she says. “I didn’t want him to worry.�

Yesterday’s outpouring of anguish from families after Lieutenant-General Freddie Vigger, the Army’s personnel chief, criticised the squalid housing conditions is unprecedented, Mrs Brown says, and a measure of how bad things have become.

She says: “The virtue of army families has always been: crack on, take whatever is thrown at you, but that is part of the problem Â* we have been our own worst enemy.

“Wives have no voice — we are not tenants. We are ‘allowed’ to live in our quarters under licence from the Secretary of State, but my husband is the licensee. I have no rights, no ombudsman, I can’t sack the plumber and get another one.�

Continues over another 2 pages...