Thread: Forces accomdation - General speaks out.

Let us hope that Debut are better at constructing accommodation than they are at building websites...

I note that they do not mention what progress they have made, whether they are on target to finish on time, whether they are within budget, or anything else of real interest.

Originally Posted by ViroBono

Let us hope that Debut are better at constructing accommodation than they are at building websites...

I note that they do not mention what progress they have made, whether they are on target to finish on time, whether they are within budget, or anything else of real interest.

Hmmm....the original project team were based in Aldershot and sadly, the Comms focus (who updated their website) has been posted .......I have actually left a message with the Debut folk asking where I can find some updated material, for my own interest. We'll see.

I guess at the very least V-B you have now heard of SLAM ?

There's a very hard working guy in Wilton who can doubtless tell you exactly how many Army bedspaces have been delivered since the Project started......been a while since I was there. Might be worth checking the Landweb site if you have access.

Le Chevre

Already aware of SLAM, as the Sgt's Mess accom at RAF Wittering was built as part of it. Sadly, the condemned accom that should have been demolished when it opened is still in use; the plan to rebuild the Officers' Mess accom didn't happen (so still 1 shower for 14 people, c/w peeling asbestos walls and ceilings); and a condemned OR's block is still in use.

My point about the stats is that many of the figures quoted by politicians, MOD and contractors are meaningless unless they are put in context.

I rather suspect that the amount of money which may be allocated for new build and refurbishment is not enough to maintain momentum upstream. The reality is that accommodation will continue to deteriorate over the coming years unless there is a massive injection of money to update present accommodation and build new.

Ha looks like people are getting things in a twist

http://timesonline.typepad.com/mick_..._isn.html#more
Life Really Isn't Fair
The spin doctors at the Ministry of Defence are apparently extremely angry over our story on Sunday revealing that the real cost of the refurbishment of the MoD Main Building is three times the £746m they have always claimed, at a whopping £2.35bn. So upset in fact that a text message on my phone from a senior MoD official, parts of which I cannot repeat in polite company - we do have scruples on this website - tells me that the story is “utterly, shabby, second rate b*))*cks�. Except that of course it isn’t, it was revealed as true in a parliamentary written answer on 6 December. That response was written by MoD officials, who I assume knew what they were talking about, and it has since been confirmed as accurate by the MoD press office.

The deal covered not just the actual refurbishment of the MoD building, which we were told was only going to cost £352m, but also its maintenance for 30 years from 2000 to 2030. Given that the MoD has always claimed that whole package was going to cost £746m, it seems a fair question to ask as to why no-one ever mentioned it was actually going to cost £2.35bn. But then if they had, we might have questioned the wisdom of it all, mightn’t we?

It is of course not fair to compare the palatial state of the MoD Main Building, with its expensive designer chairs, custom-built oak doors and high-tech audio visual equipment hidden behind “very high quality bespoke credenzas�, to the deplorable state of a large proportion of forces barrack blocks with their leaking roofs, exposed wiring, and unserviceable toilet facilities. [A credenza for those of you wondering is apparently a trendy name for a cabinet.]

It is also not really fair to compare the £2.35bn cost of the refurbishment to the defence cuts that are about to take place. But hey, life’s not fair. So for the record, the £2.35bn would:

Easily wipe out the £1bn black hole in the defence budget that has led to the latest round of cuts.

Pay the salaries of the 1,800 desperately needed infantrymen inexplicably axed in the 2004 defence cuts, and do it for more than 60 years!

Pay the two new Astute submarines also axed in the 2004 cuts.

Pay for the two new Type 45 destroyers the Navy will not get as a result of the current cuts.

Pay for one of the two new aircraft carriers that are also at risk in the latest cuts.

Pay for more than 50 of the RAF’s Eurofighter/Typhoon aircraft.

Perhaps more to the point, it would easily pay for the 1,000 British troops the government initially promised to send to Afghanistan as a rapid reaction force before reneging on the deal. So why don’t we do that? Let’s pay for them for five years at a cost of £110m.

Now let’s buy them say 30 Chinooks to be absolutely certain they could be moved wherever they were needed at a moment’s notice. That will cost us a further £881m.

Let's be really generous and allow the MoD to keep the £352m it actually should have cost to refurbish their headquarters, it seems more than enough, don’t you think?

Now let’s add it all together and see if we could pay for it out of the MoD’s £2.35bn. Well blow me down. It comes to just under £1.35bn. Not only can we easily pay for it but we’ve got a billion pounds left over to completely wipe out the black hole in the defence budget at a stroke. We can cancel the new defence cuts as well. Except we can’t of course, because the MoD has already committed itself to spending the £2.35bn.

That really is a crying shame. Because those troops and those helicopters have been sorely missed in Afghanistan, indeed it is fair to say that without them there is a severe danger of a mission that should have been achievable, and which Tony Blair could genuinely have claimed as a worthwhile legacy, failing completely. If you want to see why, I suggest you watch Dispatches tonight at 8pm on Channel 4. It will make you weep at how badly our troops are being let down. Now that really isn’t fair.

May I suggest that some of the money left over, say perhaps £1M be used to pay for 5 more coroners to clear the disgracful backlog in inquests yet to be held in Oxford. That would be money well spent it seems to me!!

Originally Posted by Major_Blink

May I suggest that some of the money left over, say perhaps £1M be used to pay for 5 more coroners to clear the disgracful backlog in inquests yet to be held in Oxford. That would be money well spent it seems to me!!

Thanks, MB.

BAFF has taken up the inquest delay issue as another of our campaigns.

I spoke about it at the BAFF launch, and have been briefing on it as recently as yesterday.

There are associated issues about inquest costs to the families, legal aid, and charges to families for copies of MOD papers produced to the coroner.

Anyone with relevant information, please email campaigns@baffhq.co.uk as soon as possible.

Douglas Young
British Armed Forces Federation (BAFF)

Mr Derek Twigg the Conservalabourtory party Parliamentary Undersecretary of State for Defence responded to two identical Parliamentary Question put to him yesterday, 22 January 2007 by Mr Richard Benyon, Conservalabourtory member for Newbury and Mr Henry Bellingham, Conservalabourtory member for North West Norfolk regarding the adequacy of housing for servicepeople and their families

The exchange is recorded at Hansard Columns 1123 – 1127.

Derek did not like this particular question at column 1126:

“Mr. David Ruffley (Bury St. Edmunds) (Conservalabourtive): Over the next decade the Department will spend about £25,000 per soldier on refurbishing living quarters, but more than £75,000 per civil servant on the Department’s Whitehall refit. In the course of that refit, it will purchase Herman Miller Aeron luxury chairs at £1,000 each, and over £3 million will be spent on 3,000 European oak doors, with hand-crafted finish. Is such disparity and dysfunctional extravagance justified?”

Probably specious but nevertheless entertaining in the cut and thrust of political point-scoring!

What is most important about this issue is that it must not be allowed to fall out of sight. Far too often we gain the air of publicity only to allow the subject to slip away and become old news. Let us all maintain the pressure so far exerted to ensure that this issue remains at the top of the list of Forces priorities.
Points like that raised by Iolis above whilst amusing, also serve to highlight the massive disparity and the incredible brass neck of politicians in planning such lavish offices whilst our wives, families and mates have to occupy accomodation that is not fit for habitation.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Derek Twigg): “…We have spent, or are planning to spend, over £1.3 billion on modern en-suite single bed spaces for our service personnel. That is just part of the £5 billion that we plan to spend on service accommodation in the next decade…..”

Hansard: 22 Jan 2007 : Column 1124



"You couldn't have it if you did want it," the Queen said. "The rule is jam tomorrow and jam yesterday - but never jam today."

"It must come sometimes to jam today," Alice objected.

"No it can't," said the Queen. "It's jam every other day: today isn't any other day, you know."

Lewis Carroll Through the Looking Glass (19xx: xx)

Regards and best wishes
Iolis
_________________
Believe nothing you hear until it is officially denied!

It is not a cynical observation - it is an accurate observation of a cynical state of affairs!

Originally Posted by Iolis

...In the course of that refit, it will purchase Herman Miller Aeron luxury chairs at £1,000 each, and over £3 million will be spent on 3,000 European oak doors, with hand-crafted finish. ...

I could (easily) swear that the Conservalabchav said European faux oak, with simulated hand crafted finish - however my steam gramastrereotelly is on the blink ...

Originally Posted by Iolis

the Queen said. "The rule is jam tomorrow and jam yesterday - but never jam today."

...From within the teapot "... twinkle ... twinkle.. . twinkle ...twi...nnn...kle"

Meanwhile in the real world - at Dulmen in germany, soldiers are living in a temporay containerised block and SNCOs / WOs are living in single rooms with a basin that are 2.3 x 2.5 M (and thats worth promtion!!)

Let's get something straight......

1. Single Living Accommodation for Forces, particularly in the Army, has been in a dreadful state for the last ten years. Married quarters too are often in a disgraceful condition.

2. The Forces, particularly the Army, have registered this and are trying to redress. Not just with SLAM, but with PUMA in Germany and other localised projects, not to mention some gigantic blobbed up 'super garrison' projects such as the Colly PFI and Allenby-Connaught.

3. Money, resources, funding - has been and will always be THE KEY issue. Not just for new capital Projects ( and if you're in Colchester, check out the Z scale 1 man, 1 room accommodation which has NOW been delivered. If you're in Aldershot, take a look at New Mons Barracks. If you're in Waterbeach, check out the new SLA there) but ALSO for MAINTENANCE.

4. BUT for every new build bks ( see above) some poor sod is RIGHT NOW living in a block which literally would be illegal to hold felons in. Never mind Dulmen ( which IIRC actually belongs to the Defence Storage and Distribution Agency rather than the Army ?) I cite the recent BBC news featuring a Prison Visitor from HMP Norwich. She was outraged that prisoners are being forced to occupy 20 year old accom, with leaky traps...oh how I larfed; come and take a look at Bhurtpore or Louisburg or Azimghur or Hounslow Cav sweetpea

4. The point I'm making is that since 1999 AT LEAST, the Army has been desperately trying to address its historic and crumbling estate. For people on ARRSE to paint an entirely black picture destroys our credibility - yes, accom is bad, but equally YES something is at long last being done about it - with GLACIAL speed.....but it AIN'T gonna be fixed overnight because there has been a 20 year history of neglect which has to be addressed.

5. The chair I'm sitting on cost about a fiver from Rymans.....


( I am in danger of violently agreeing with most of the points on here - but please don't give the impression that nobody knows about the problem or that nothing is being done - it is.)

Dee Billybock

[quote="Goatman"]Let's get something straight......
1Never mind Dulmen ( which IIRC actually belongs to the Defence Storage and Distribution Agency rather than the Army ?)quote]

Actually the Depot area at Dulmen is DSDA(E), but the accomodation is outside the wire and is "owned" and administered by the Army, specifically Rhine Garrison through HQ RESG at Rheindahlen. Straight enough?

4. The point I'm making is that since 1999 AT LEAST, the Army has been desperately trying to address its historic and crumbling estate. For people on ARRSE to paint an entirely black picture destroys our credibility - yes, accom is bad, but equally YES something is at long last being done about it - with GLACIAL speed.....but it AIN'T gonna be fixed overnight because there has been a 20 year history of neglect which has to be addressed.

It still doesn't help that you can join now and be pretty much assured that out of a career of 22 years you will spend lots of it in rotting accomodation, and pay for the privilege. You are right, it won't be fixed overnight, but they SHOULD have started fixing it a long, long time ago. It made me laugh reading the BBCs' have your say column and many former servicemen\women spouting off about 'how this would not have happend in their day' and 'our accomodation was always sparkling' whilst totally failing to realise that the rotting buildings and accomodation are exactly the same as they were cleaning 30-40 years ago and have never been repaired\modernised upkept by the relevent authorities.