ARmy Rumour SErvice

Originally Posted by Marc_St_Hilaire

Indeed. The pressure on the pilot during final approach must have been pretty horrendous: very high approach speed, don't shut the throttle until the wheels are down etc. Stunning looking plane thougth. Real Buck Rogers stuff

..Not to mention sitting in a seat that fired DOWNWARDS.

Originally Posted by HectortheInspector

..Not to mention sitting in a seat that fired DOWNWARDS.

Only on the A version, which only the USAF used. The CF-104, and the G model that was mostly in NATO service had a upward seat.

More on the Luftwaffe's F-104 losses here:

Starfighter with Luftwaffe

During its period of service with the German armed forces, about 270 German Starfighters were lost in accidents, just under 30 percent of the total force. About 110 pilots were killed. However, the attrition rate in German service was not all that much greater than that of the F-104 in service with several other air forces, including the United States Air Force. Canada had the unenviable record of losing over 50 percent of its 200 single-seat CF-104s in flying accidents. The loss rate of Luftwaffe Starfighters was not all that extraordinary, since the Luftwaffe had suffered a 36 percent attrition rate with the Republic F-84F Thunderstreak, the Starfighter's immediate predecessor. There was nothing intrinsically dangerous about the Starfighter, since the Royal Norwegian Air Force operating identical F-104Gs suffered only six losses in 56,000 flying hours, and the Spanish Air Force lost not a single one of its Starfighters to accidents.

Nevertheless, some of the Luftwaffe crashes could indeed be traced to technical problems with the F-104G itself. Engine problems, including difficulties with the J79's variable afterburner nozzle, and contamination of the Starfighter's liquid oxygen system causing loss of consciousness of the pilot were listed as contributing factors in some of the accidents. There were also problems with the automatic pitch-up limiter during high-speed low-altitude flying and in tight turns, resulting in its temporary removal, with accompanying restrictions on the maneuverability.

However, the high rate of crashes while in Luftwaffe service could be blamed more on the hazards of flying low-altitude missions at high speeds in the bad weather of Northern Europe than on any intrinsic flaw with the F-104G. Human error was probably the major cause of the majority of the accidents. The Starfighter required 38-45 hours of maintenance for every hour in the air, and many of the Luftwaffe ground crew personnel were conscripts who were probably too hastily trained. In addition, German Starfighter pilots were only flying 13-15 hours a month, compared with the NATO average of about 20 hours. Another factor may have been the fact that the initial training of Luftwaffe aircrews took place in the USA rather than in Germany. The reason given for training Luftwaffe pilots in the USA rather than in Germany was that the clear air and good flying weather in the American Southwest was much more conducive to pilot training than was the often lousy weather of Northern Europe. However, one might fairly point out that were war to break out, the actual fighting would be done in the nasty weather of Europe rather than in the clear desert air of the American West. The sudden transition from the clear desert skies of Arizona to the winter skies of northern Europe may have been another factor in the rash of crashes.

At the height of the Starfighter political crisis in mid-1966, the Luftwaffe chief, General Wernher Panitzki, was forced to resign after he had criticized the FRG's Starfighter procurement program as being politically-motivated. His successor was the World War 2 ace Lieutenant General Johannes Steinhoff, who had flown Me 262 jets during the war. Steinhoff had not initially been a Starfighter booster, and he had complained about the Bonn Defence Ministry's failure to implement the recommendations of his 1964 report on F-104G survival measures. One of Steinhoff's first moves was to review the F-104G's ejection system to enhance the probability of a successful escape by a pilot at low level. The Lockheed C-2 ejection seat initially fitted to the F-104G had been fitted with a more powerful Talley Corp 10100 rocket booster by November 1966 to give it true zero-zero capability. However, it was found that the Talley rockets had a destabilizing effect after ejection, and had to be removed. After the German Starfighter had to be grounded once again for fixes to the C-2 seats in December of 1966, it was decided to switch over to Martin-Baker Mk GQ7A zero-zero ejection seats. A contract was signed on March 8, 1967 to re-equip the entire German F-104G force with the Martin-Baker seats. This took about a year to get done. The first successful use of a GQ7 seat to escape from a German F-104G took place during a ground-level overshoot at Ramstein on September 24, 1968.

Another part of the program to reduce the Starfighter accident rate was the revision of the training techniques and procedures. It soon began to pay off. The Starfighter accident rate dropped by about half in 1968. However, this was only temporary, and between 15 and 20 Starfighters crashed very year between 1968 and 1972. Crashes continued at a rate of 9 to 11 aircraft per year until the early 1980s, when all German F-104Gs began to be replaced by Tornados.

And how the Canadians ended up getting it even though it was only the RCAF's third choice:

Canadair CF-104 Starfighter

In the late 1950s, the Canadian government had a clear need for a supersonic replacement for the Sabre Mk.6 in RCAF service. Several aircraft were considered in the competition, including the McDonnell F4H Phantom II, the Lockheed F-104 Starfighter, and the Grumman F11F-1F Super Tiger. The RCAF clearly preferred the Phantom as the Sabre replacement, but this was rejected fairly early on, probably due to its high cost. As the alternative, the RCAF preferred the Super Tiger (even though it had not been purchased by the US Navy), but on July 2, 1959, it was announced that Canada had chosen the F-104 Starfighter as the replacement for the Sabre Mk.6 in service with the RCAF's European Air Division. The choice was probably made because of a better deal (in terms of economics) being struck between the manufacturer and the Canadian government.

About 110 CF-104/CF-104Ds were lost in accidents, out of 239 delivered--a loss rate of no less than 46 percent. However, it is only fair to point out that the Canadian CF-104s probably had the highest flying time of any country operating the Starfighter. At the time of retirement, average airframe times were of the order of 6000 hours as compared to 2000 hours for the Luftwaffe.

Originally Posted by History_Man

I believe that the Germans called it the 'widow maker.'

Not specifically German- it was generic, the Italians had them too and lost a few. If I recall it was because of the nature of the wings and the inherent instability of the design-nothing new now-but then it was quite a new concept.

Originally Posted by LeoRoverman

Not specifically German- it was generic, the Italians had them too and lost a few. If I recall it was because of the nature of the wings and the inherent instability of the design-nothing new now-but then it was quite a new concept.

Actually it was one of the stablest weapons platforms around, turbulence had almost no effect on it due to the high wing load.

Originally Posted by baboon6

And how the Canadians ended up getting it even though it was only the RCAF's third choice:

Canadair CF-104 Starfighter

During a sqn exchange in Spain, the Spainish CO was comparing the Canadian loss rate to that of Spains (0 lost, but only some 16,000 hours flown), the Canadian CO pointed out that the 4 Canadian Starfighters parked on the tarmac had more than 20,000 flight hours between them.

Case closed.

Originally Posted by Flash MacTavish

During a sqn exchange in Spain, the Spainish CO was comparing the Canadian loss rate to that of Spains (0 lost, but only some 16,000 hours flown), the Canadian CO pointed out that the 4 Canadian Starfighters parked on the tarmac had more than 20,000 flight hours between them.

Case closed.

Though as detailed above the German accident rate was pretty high without flying the kind of hours the Canadians were. It did get a bit better though as time went on.

I'm sure the Canadian flying hours translated into increased pilot competence which was the only way to do it in those days before high-tech simulators. Even today I don't think keeping your aircraft and aircrews wrapped in cotton wool (so to speak) does them any favours in the long run.