ARmy Rumour SErvice

great shame, what a disgraceful waste of skills.

Originally Posted by bokkatankie

Where will our next fleet of Tanks be built?

Here;

Krauss-Maffei - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by jagman

So you judge Vickers AFV's by the products of the 1940's rather than its last product?

That would be its last product that has now left the army with tanks with a dead end gun because it was thought politically vital to protect a few Northern jobs rather than buy a proper cutting edge tank?

Originally Posted by bokkatankie

The 2 pounder was detested by the poor folk that had to fight it, penetration was pathetic (unless you were shooting at an Italian tank, in which case a hot knife would have been fine).

There wasn't much wrong with the 2 Pounder for its time - it was due to be replaced with the 6 Pounder (also a good enough weapon) starting in 1940 but with the loss of so many of the BEF's guns in France and Belgium we couldn't afford the production gap as the 2Pdr building machinery was pulled out of factory and 6Pdr machinery installed.

The 2Pdr wasn't all that much worse than the short 75mm on early marks of Sherman for armour penetration. The 75's biggest advantage was having a decent HE round to deal with AT guns. The 6Pdr was a better anti armour weapon than either (but again, no HE round from memory).

Originally Posted by jimmys_best_mate

There wasn't much wrong with the 2 Pounder for its time - it was due to be replaced with the 6 Pounder (also a good enough weapon) starting in 1940 but with the loss of so many of the BEF's guns in France and Belgium we couldn't afford the production gap as the 2Pdr building machinery was pulled out of factory and 6Pdr machinery installed.

The 2Pdr wasn't all that much worse than the short 75mm on early marks of Sherman for armour penetration. The 75's biggest advantage was having a decent HE round to deal with AT guns. The 6Pdr was a better anti armour weapon than either (but again, no HE round from memory).

Your memory is correct, British tank gun design was bad enough but the stupidity of producing guns that could not fire HE was beyond belief. However, that the same stupidity led us down the black hole of rifled and HESH, truly beggars belief.

This was not helped by inter arm rivalry that had the RAC manning tanks and RA manning Anti-Tank and the poor bloody infantry being forgoten, almost entirely, in the process.

Originally Posted by sunnoficarus

That would be its last product that has now left the army with tanks with a dead end gun because it was thought politically vital to protect a few Northern jobs rather than buy a proper cutting edge tank?

Give it a rest man. Who chose the L30? Not Vickers.

You have an obsession that anything made in the USA must be better than anything built in Britain. You are wrong.

As for dead end, is it really? Don't you think it might be cheaper to produce fresh stocks of ammunition rather than but a few hundred new tanks.

Lets be honest, Challenger II is world class even now years after production ended. Its nigh on impossible to kill, it makes a fucking big hole in anything it shoots at and it goes pretty well (even better had it been given the more powerful engine the MOD didn't want to buy)
If we want heavy armour we already have it. Current ammunition can kill anything its going to encounter.

Originally Posted by bokkatankie

Your memory is correct, British tank gun design was bad enough but the stupidity of producing guns that could not fire HE was beyond belief. However, that the same stupidity led us down the black hole of rifled and HESH, truly beggars belief.

There were support tanks developed with 3-inch or 95mm howitzers to provide the HE support - the same as the Germans with the 37mm for AT on the Pz.III and the short 75mm on the Pz.IV

Originally Posted by bokkatankie

Your memory is correct, British tank gun design was bad enough but the stupidity of producing guns that could not fire HE was beyond belief. However, that the same stupidity led us down the black hole of rifled and HESH, truly beggars belief.

This was not helped by inter arm rivalry that had the RAC manning tanks and RA manning Anti-Tank and the poor bloody infantry being forgoten, almost entirely, in the process.

2 pounder HE was developed but dropped as it was ineffective and caused problems with prematures in tight bores!
Notes from a lecture at IWM. Also inf were also anti tank gunners in western desert!

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