ARmy Rumour SErvice

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk Donk

I'd like to see a comparison of sums from a reliable source before we assume the recruitment of JG is expensive compared to home grown. After all I don't hear the recruitment centre in Nepal having to spunk millions on TV adverts only for their units to remain under manned unlike at home.

Your personal observations on working with JG conflict with my own experience. I could think of many units that struck me as being particularly crap at various things yet JG didn't strike me as being the worse in any department. I’m not aware of RGR failing any specific audit or any type of fit for role assessment. They obviously failed to dazzle you yet they seemingly manage to tick the boxes as far as the Army is concerned. In contrast I know of at least one Line Bn who recently had to re-show on PDT. God forbid we ever sink low enough where we are seriously contemplating slashing effective INF units because of the % of manpower that happen to be married or not. Talk about scraping the barrel. Jesus wept, we really do have no hope for the future if that train of thought is going to dictate the future Infantry ORBAT. You couldn’t make it up.....only in the backward thinking British Army eh.

IIRC JG's ITC course lasts 36 weeks. In comparison Para’s get churned out in 32, Guards 28 and Line Infantry 26 weeks. I’d be interested to compare the cost and time effectiveness between giving RGR an extra 8 weeks to sort their shit out and the approach that sees Fijians and Caribbean’s consistently being back squaded. Last time I was up there, ITC was backlogged with large numbers of broken Foreigners who simply were not up to the task of passing ITC in the time frame allotted. Just take a quick look into Hook Coy or Rehab and count the foreigners. Not to mention that many of them don’t even "fit in" with their units whenever they do finally manage to pass out. I’d gladly oblige RGR the extra 8 weeks training time it takes them to knock out trained soldiers if it ensures they continue to have a fraction of the wastage that clogs up the system over at Vimey bks.

To suggest that a single RGR Bn actually costs double that of a Brit Bn is debateable. Can you point me in the direction of a credible source? I was under the impression that the Brunei based Bn has it's running costs covered by the Sultan, so if anything we should be ORBAT’d as 2x RGR Bns for the price of one.

So all F&C troops are worthless? I'm not accusing you of that but a sample of them indicates thus! Perhaps all troops should get the additional training. Or perhaps all should get the minimum and then we can measure effectiveness.
No one has discounted the efforts of JG in providing incremental companies, perhaps its time that they started to provide IRs as the rest of the Infantry has done since before my memory started. we would see how effective they are then. If they were then useful it could be a roll out. At the moment look at any op touring Bn and it will have an incremental company, a composite company and a shit load of IRs from other cap badges. Its always been the same. Its the beauty of the battle group. Can the JG provide IRs at short notice to a rifle company of say the R Anglians? I know my old regiment could, its that flexibility that ensures the British bns cope with the workload on a tour. The Bns need incremental companies because they have areas far to big to control with a standard Bn. Its always been the same. In 1983 my Bns TAOR was that of 3 Bns in 1978. to change that you need a bigger army or more frequent tours! something we wont be seeing much of in a hurry!
So apart from providing an incremental company thats all they can do for the inf? Not good enough nowadays!

Originally Posted by Busterdog

OK Jimmy, lets put it simply, could you (assuming you're not a Nepali of the preferred caste) join the Gurkha Rifles as a Tom?

No I couldn't, but why would I want to when it's not my local infantry regiment? There's nothing stopping me from being posted to a Gurkha Signal Squadron though, where I'd wear the Gurkha Signal capbadge, their stable belt, their buttons and collar dogs on my twos and the crossed kukhris on my arm.

Personally I don't care if we have regiments just for Nepalese, just for Muslims, just for Sikhs or just for anyone else. The only thing I'm bothered about for the Army is that the regiments we have are fully manned, fully trained and fully capable. I couldn't care less what colour they are, what festivals they believe in or anything else. Going on those criteria there's more than one 'British' battalion that should be on the block before the Gurkhas.

If it comes down to losing one or both Gurkha battalions then so be it, so long as the reason we're losing them is because they're now the worst two battalions left in the Army and not to protect a random 'British' battalion that's undermanned and no better as soldiers.

Originally Posted by O2 Oxygen Thief

Not like the FFL..??..rock up at the designated centre(katmandu..??) like PCo...pass the selection requirements(which are 'tough') and sign up..take it no 'whitey' has tried this very obvious route..??..so until this happens and 'whitey' gets turned down its all 'allegedly'..

N.B. thinking a little more..I presume its also a question of 'nationality' if your a Nepaleese(spelling) your OK, if not you don't qualify..bit like the POTUS job..so whitey also needs to get hitched to a Nepal woman...'simples'

O2. Hardly 'allegedly' if your name's not Rai, Gurung, Thapa, Limbu, or any of the other preferred tribes you're fuc*ed. I recall a couple of Chetris (a higher caste than the usual Gurkhas) in 2GR whose lives were made miserable by Gurung and Co. The Chetris, in turn, would privately express their contempt of their lower caste comrades.

Honky, I think you're forgetting the training the wee men receive in Nepal before they arrive in the UK (though how long the Nepali Politburo allow that to continue is anyone's guess).

Now back on thread regarding re-patriating the adult children of former Gurkhas - they should go home, though they'll probably be allowed to stay and become a burden on the taxpayer like a couple of thousand more who shuffled into Aldershot courtesy of that woman Lumley. Perhaps we should factor that into the cost of maintaining Gurkha units too!

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk Donk

Survival of the fittest is the common mantra within the Infantry at bod level...

So's drinking until you're sick, chod tattoos & shagging (then marrying) fat lasses but I don't see that as a firm base for Government policy

HTD,
You have missed out the 6 months or so they have in Nepal before they even get on the plane to Catterick. As for failing Audits, Fit For Role inspections, if it was not for the extra Cadre of "White Faces" that they require to ensure they actually function they would have fallen apart long ago. I do not see my unit relying on outside specialists posted in to pass the minimum standards.

About the costs, I can only speak for the Infra side and they are far, far above that what is required for a normal Bn. As before, 3 x as many MQ’s, larger families, more schooling, healthcare for the soldier and families, LOA etc, leaves to be taken in UK or Nepal etc. The Sultan ponies up a bit, but it is not the full cost and besides which apart from keeping Ram Dhani’s in business and a bit of support to TTB, what do they provide to the tour plot. Oh yes, a tour mentoring Plod and PB overwatch, if they are as good as they say they are, why were they not at the very sharp end??

Add to that as we have all seen the “Gurkha Pass” on various courses. If someone ever puts a virus on that Hard Drive held somewhere in the Bde that holds all past and present Army exam papers, you watch the Borg go into meltdown.

A lot of things can be swept out of sight under various carpets by a determined enough unit. Having heard all of the myths about them being more reliable, dedicated and fitter than any British Tom I was treated to the pleasure of a PFT with the Bn. This time they decided to start the oldies off first, then through the age groups at the relevant time intervals until the young 'uns had to start. The finish point was the camp gate and it was to be closed at the cut off time. Watching a shed load of fat useless Burpa's from a unit that a month or so previously had logged a 100% pass rate trying to scale the perimeter fence, whinging, pleading and bubbling to the Guard still brings a smile to my face. That was one of quite a few instances where the various bubbles about their quality that I held were burst.

The QGO's who if you could actually collar them in their offices when they were not on the Golf Course, would have far less of a clue than the potted plants residing in their offices as to what was going on. It was a sad state of affairs that the best soldier in a particular little support unit was a LCpl who would never get promoted because he had the wrong surname even though he kept it afloat and his QGO out of nick.

Me, I'm just a Sapper, no weird and wonderful coloured beret adorns my head and I’m certainly not a super soldier, but I've spent more than enough time in various shitholes around the world working for and with all sorts of weird, wonderful, historic, grand, plain old vanilla units and even led foreign troops to have a fair idea of what is right and wrong with an organisation. I'm well aware of the limitations that my own Corps and what our QGE have. The one thing they are not limited by is quantities of manpower just like the rest of the Bde of Gurkhas, but what they are limited by is the overall quality of that manpower. I'm aware that as Stalin said, quantity has a quality all of its own, but not in these parsimonious times where every bloke counts and had better be able to do his job. How many of us now are double and triple hatted in our daily duties?

We cannot support dead weights; history, ethos and standards are not worth anything unless they are upheld. Oh, and if I ever meet St Jo of the Lumleys, she will be getting a size 13 in the Clacker. Apologies for the formatting, feckin work PC!

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk Donk

I'd like to see a comparison of sums from a reliable source before we assume the recruitment of JG is expensive compared to home grown. After all I don't hear the recruitment centre in Nepal having to spunk millions on TV adverts only for their units to remain under manned unlike at home. Your personal observations on working with JG conflict with my own experience. I could think of many units that struck me as being particularly crap at various things yet JG didn't strike me as being the worse in any department. I’m not aware of RGR failing any specific audit or any type of fit for role assessment. They obviously failed to dazzle you yet they seemingly manage to tick the boxes as far as the Army is concerned. In contrast I know of at least one Line Bn who recently had to re-show on PDT. God forbid we ever sink low enough where we are seriously contemplating slashing effective INF units because of the % of manpower that happen to be married or not. Talk about scraping the barrel. Jesus wept, we really do have no hope for the future if that train of thought is going to dictate the future Infantry ORBAT. You couldn’t make it up.....only in the backward thinking British Army eh. IIRC JG's ITC course lasts 36 weeks. In comparison Para’s get churned out in 32, Guards 28 and Line Infantry 26 weeks. I’d be interested to compare the cost and time effectiveness between giving RGR an extra 8 weeks to sort their shit out and the approach that sees Fijians and Caribbean’s consistently being back squaded. Last time I was up there, ITC was backlogged with large numbers of broken Foreigners who simply were not up to the task of passing ITC in the time frame allotted. Just take a quick look into Hook Coy or Rehab and count the foreigners. Not to mention that many of them don’t even "fit in" with their units whenever they do finally manage to pass out. I’d gladly oblige RGR the extra 8 weeks training time it takes them to knock out trained soldiers if it ensures they continue to have a fraction of the wastage that clogs up the system over at Vimey bks.To suggest that a single RGR Bn actually costs double that of a Brit Bn is debateable. Can you point me in the direction of a credible source? I was under the impression that the Brunei based Bn has it's running costs covered by the Sultan, so if anything we should be ORBAT’d as 2x RGR Bns for the price of one.

Sapper145,

Go back a couple of pages Gurkha children lose test case

Originally Posted by smallbrownprivates

RGR
1998 - until now 108 platoon - company size operational deployments with other units/standalone
1998 - until now 13 BG operational deployments

The info on numbers of deployments as partial or formed units comes from a recent brief BoG gave to MOD - presumably you will allege they are lying or twisting figures to suit. Not exactly individual IRs, ugly, but they have been pulling their weight.

Originally Posted by smallbrownprivates

Recruitment is an interesting one. Recruiting group's annual budget has varied in between £25m-£36m - not sure what it is at the moment. This year this is producing 7000 recruits. If HQRG ratio still stands, this is a little less that 1/10th of people reached/marketed to. (ratio is 10 see/note the adverts, 3 then take it further, only 1 of the original 10 leaves phase 1 training)

Gurkha recruiting is a little different, piggy backed on to charitably funded welfare centres with very few permanent staff. Specific recruitment costs come in the form of adverts (@£5- 8k per year) in the local papers saying when and where to pitch up. Before attestation, passing of physical/mental tests to a higher level is required.

Difficult to compare; Brit recruiting is focused on encouraging people to apply, gurkha recruiting on whittling numbers of keen applicants down (ratios have anecdotally varied from 300 to 30 applicants per vacancy)

The info on recruiting figures and ratios come from time spent working at HQRG and from a specific query about comparative costs of UK vs Gurkha recruiting I was asked to respond to.

As opposed to apologising about the formatting, why not do some research and dig up some data instead of recycling what sounds like personal gripes as fact?

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk Donk

Who here actually feels hard done by or discriminated against because white boys can't serve as Toms in RGR?

If you’re not a naturalized Tree Frog and have a deep desire to serve in RGR then get a commission and become an RGR officer. Failing that, if you’re slightly more adventurous, tape your eyes back, get a tan, lose a few inches in height and report to Nepal with a basket full of rocks on your back and get tabbing.

OTT PC bullshit does not belong in the Infantry, especially when it's being used to disband a good Regiment.

see you don't waste time reading other peoples posts.. ;)

Smallbrownprivates,Where did I say they were lying or twisting figures? Nor did I alledge they were tour dodging, just asking why if they were that good, why where they only entrusted with a task, not what I would have expected a unit of that vaunted calibre to be given?

Likewise, I was also not questioning the recruiting costs, rather the training and life support burden vis a vis a normal vanilla inf Bn. Or maybe its not personal gripes but rather the view of an outsider looking in and not that of someone who is part of the Bde with a vested intrest.

Originally Posted by smallbrownprivates

Sapper145,Go back a couple of pages Gurkha children lose test caseThe info on numbers of deployments as partial or formed units comes from a recent brief BoG gave to MOD - presumably you will allege they are lying or twisting figures to suit. Not exactly individual IRs, ugly, but they have been pulling their weight.The info on recruiting figures and ratios come from time spent working at HQRG and from a specific query about comparative costs of UK vs Gurkha recruiting I was asked to respond to.As opposed to apologising about the formatting, why not do some research and dig up some data instead of recycling what sounds like personal gripes as fact?